Direct-to-Ill-Informed Decisions

Brian: 00:00:05

Morning, John, how you doing?

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John: Good, Brian.

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Good morning to you, sir.

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How are you?

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Brian: I'm doing great.

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I just heard some awesome news.

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Chili's the restaurant group is bringing

back their, baby back ribs commercials.

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John: Wow, you're coming

in hot with that one

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Brian: I it's a hot take.

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And even better than that, they are

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John: That damn song, the damn

song's already in my head.

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Thank you.

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Brian: you won't get rid of it, and even

better, Boyz II Men is, in the commercial

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singing the song, who people have long

thought, the song was built around.

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John: Wow.

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Wow.

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Brian: Yeah, so that

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John: This is all news to me

and fascinating news at that.

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Brian: so good.

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Look that up.

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That was, that was really a fun

way to wake up this morning.

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John: Well, uh, I'm glad you've

had such a good start to your day.

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Mine has been, little bit more

discombobulated, including switching

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to, what might be a crappy microphone.

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I'm not sure, so we'll see.

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Brian: We'll see how that comes out.

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One other element about that

commercial that I really like that.

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I think you're going to really love is

the amount of snaps that they put into

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the new Chili's baby back ribs commercial.

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John: nice, nice.

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Brian: Yeah.

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So, uh, the snap attack is,

uh, is really high in that one.

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Let's get started.

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John: Right on, giddy up.

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Brian: let's get right into

our first snap decision.

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, John, I've been reading a lot

lately about, direct to consumer

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brands and kind of where they're at.

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And actually where they're not at.

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There's been a lot of investment

in, in these types of brands,

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the last several years.

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We've seen them all over the place

with, , dollar shave club, uh blue apron,

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John: Casper mattresses.

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Brian: yeah, Casper, all these

brands and, unfortunately.

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they've been extremely overvalued

and, , I was reading an article in Fast

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Company this week that really talked

about how they're almost becoming zombie

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brands where, , they exist in name

only and, and what's behind them is.

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Not anywhere near what their original

purpose was and the way that they

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operate, has kind of been hollowed out

and, , that really, , was an interesting,

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, look at where they're at in the

marketplace now and how, investment

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companies have, overinvested in this.

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John: So, so Brian, when you say zombie

brands, is that referring to like a

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brand that, that previously was something

different and now is a direct consumer or,

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or, or tell me more about what that means.

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Brian: so that means that,

they still exist, sort of.

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They exist in name only,

but , , the operations behind

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it, is completely different.

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So, , in the case of blue apron,

who, was really going down a path

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of like sourcing their own food and

bringing a whole sustainability lens

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to the type of food prep that they,

um, to the consumer directly and

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kind of cutting out the middleman.

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they're now operating in a completely

different way where they're, they're not

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even sourcing their own food anymore,

and they're outsourcing the, the food

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itself and more focusing on, recipes

and marketing and, kind of leveraging

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their name and not the way that they

operate, which is really interesting.

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John: Should I think of the example

of, Bed Bath and Beyond kind of after

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going bankrupt and being bought by

Overstock, no longer has stores.

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Well, there are stores, there are big

empty, husks of stores out there that

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you drive by, , but now the brand is.

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Still existing online, but run by

Overstock as an e commerce brand.

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, is that a relevant example of

what you're talking about here?

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Brian: In a way, yeah.

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And, uh, you know, another example is,

is Converse who was bought by Nike and,

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you know, Converse name still has some,

some play, but it's run completely by

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Nike, which was a former competitor.

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So, you know, they still, they still

operate, but not, you know, not in

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the same way, or, in this case through

a, an entirely different operator.

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another example is a, is a company

called authentic brands group, which,

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Really picks up and owns these types

of, , companies that go bankrupt and,

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and owns the licensing and IP behind it.

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And then they, they form out other

people to do the retail part, and

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then they just kind of use the

marketing purposes, which is, it was

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just fascinating to me and another.

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Direct to consumer brand that's kind of

faltering right now that was overvalued

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is, is Allbirds, which was kind of a

darling a few years ago and, and is

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kind of falling on hard times as well.

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And, and so, so my snap decision for you

is, will this impact how people bring

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products to consumers moving forward?

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Our brands.

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overestimating who they are

and what they want to be and

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what do you think about that

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John: I think most brands overestimate,

what they, what they want to be.

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Yeah.

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I do think that there are

an awful lot of brands.

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I mean, the, the examples you've just

shared there, there are a ton of them

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where a brand kind of peaked, you know,

had its run, and then went into some

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sort of lull or bankruptcy or something.

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But there's still some,

combination of IP and consumer.

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enthusiasm or emotion tied to it.

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so, you know, I, I think about, I mean,

the one that kind of jumps into my mind

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from a while ago, and it's a little

different from the direct consumer piece

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you're talking about, but Abercrombie

and Fitch, which I, I didn't even realize

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when it kind of became a team brand in the

nineties, that was a total reinvention.

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And I think it's second

reinvention, right?

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It, lived for like.

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think almost a century as a true

hardcore outdoor outfitter, right?

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There was like hunting gear and

fishing gear and like legit stuff.

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And then I think fell in hard times, did

get reinvented as a direct consumer brand.

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I think it was like a mail order,

but still in the hunting thing.

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So they kind of like took their core.

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Woke it back up later, you know, direct

consumer to back in the catalog days and

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then went completely into the shadows

until someone who I don't even know who

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but eventually ended up as part of the

limited Group of brands I think right?

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But there was some brand awareness and

provenance, I guess around Abercrombie

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and Fitch That someone turned into a teen

brand, a teen fashion brand, kind of wild

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how that one just totally got reinvented.

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which is a little different from what

way I think some of these brands get

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, restored, which is to really go back

to their core, what they stood for.

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, but I think that that is

increasingly a hard proposition.

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I think usually these brands got

to kind of reinvent themselves.

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Brian: Yeah.

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you know, the direct to consumer model,

is fascinating just in the fact that,

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know, you're cutting out the retail

stores and You're able to really just

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build a relationship with the consumer

directly and not rely on, placement

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in those places basically rely on on

everybody else to do your work for you.

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But, you know, that, that costs a

lot more money to do it that way.

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John: yeah.

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Money, money, a big part of the formula,

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Brian: that's a lot of things, right?

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John: Yeah, you know, think about your,

converse example, which is, a great one.

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I don't know how much they faded

before Nike bought them, but I

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think they're, they've kind of

become a little bit irrelevant.

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Nike really leaned into that as

an old school, cool brand, right?

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But it's Nike.

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So you know, there was a combination of.

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And I think this may be, is maybe

a formula that others will have

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followed and can follow, which

is like smart marketing, right?

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Nike's known for that.

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Plenty of dollars and nostalgia.

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You know, I think, I think you

put those things together and you

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got a chance at a good revival.

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Brian: And I think that's when a

company like Authentic Brands Group

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is, is snatching up some of these

bankrupt brands, I think that's what

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they're, they're really trying to get

people to hang on that, that nostalgia.

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John: I feel like if you don't have

that kind of nostalgia or some sort of

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strong brand connection with, you know,

strong brand position in the consumer's

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head, trying to restore an old brand is

probably just like building a new one.

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Brian: the interesting thing with the

dollar shave club, which had really a

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model that our mission that struck at

people was the, you know, shaving became

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such an expensive thing to shave in a

really more efficient way so they, they

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were able to build a lot of, of equity

in the, in the marketplace, but, uh,

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and then Unilever bought them and then

all Unilever is kind of spinning them

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off because, you know, I, I guess they

couldn't make the type of money that, you

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know, targeted to make or whatever, but

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John: Well, it's hard to live

up to the expectations that

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get created when you are viral.

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Out of the gates, right?

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Which is really how Dollar Shave

Club burst on the scene, ? They

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did that amazing viral

launch ad with their founder.

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tried to recreate it, you know, in another

version a couple years later, a year

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later, but I don't think they ever tapped

into the virality they launched with.

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And I'm going to guess they were

fairly, yes, this is speculation.

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They were probably fairly overvalued based

on a really strong market presence that

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came from something that's kind of hard

to, it's hard to recreate a viral ad.

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Brian: it's like the thing that

they always say at, at, , marketing

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conferences, when, when you get

the brief and it's like, you know,

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I want to, how do I go viral?

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John: Yeah, create something viral.

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Oh, sure.

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Brian: Sure.

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Let me just, let me just do that.

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John: There's a formula.

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We'll just

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Brian: There's a formula.

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Uh, we're just going to go viral

and then we'll go from there.

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speaking of brands that shifted, uh,

there's one really interesting, uh,

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today, you know, it's fascinating

to hear the shift of Abercrombie.

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But what about Stanley?

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teenagers are bringing them to

school every single day and all of

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them have it and they all, um, are

carrying around everywhere they go.

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So talk about a shift from, you

know, you talk about Abercrombie,

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a shift from hunting to teens.

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Stanley's kind of doing the same thing.

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John: Well, educate me.

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I don't know, I don't know what the,

the teen affiliation to Stanley is.

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What are we, what are we carrying?

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Brian: Well, the drink mugs,

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John: Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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Oh, right.

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Right.

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Right.

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I did hear about this.

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Brian: Yeah.

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So, um, and I know that

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John: am I correct in that?

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Fascinating.

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Brian: And so, I think consumers went

through the Yeti phase and now it we're

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in the Stanley face, Yeah, so that's

kind of fascinating because that's, you

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know, always been construction worker

kind of brand and, hat type of thing.

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And now, uh, you have teenage girls.

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So,

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John: Maybe, maybe more weekend warrior

than, than hard hat, but, but either

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way, uh, it's certainly a shift.

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Brian: yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So, uh, what do you got for me?

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John: Alright, so, uh, I did not prepare

a thoughtful, well investigated, , topic

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like your direct to consumer brand and

zombie brand conversation, but I did put

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together a, uh, Snap Decisions lightning

round, extremely ill informed edition.

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Um, yeah, I think, maybe it's a

new segment, you know, because

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we're, what, three episodes in

here, why not have another segment?

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Um, this, this is.

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Top of mind, man.

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Just, I want real time reactions to some

questions I'm going to post to you.

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Some are really important,

and some are not.

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Brian: oh, great.

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Put me in the hot seat.

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John: Exactly.

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None of them are really important.

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And, by the way, uh, feel free to rename

this segment from the Snap Decisions

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Lightning Round Extremely Ill Informed

Edition, because that's a little clunky.

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Alright, you ready?

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Brian: Let's do it.

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John: Let's start simple.

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Coke or Pepsi?

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Brian: Coke.

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John: headlines or super

strong call to action buttons?

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Brian: I'm going to go

call to action buttons.

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John: I knew you would.

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Is it ever okay to serve a breakfast

sandwich on an untoasted English muffin?

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Brian: No.

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John: Thank you.

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That, that's the first, that's

the only question with a right

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or wrong, and you're correct.

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It is never

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Brian: Okay.

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Good.

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This is an all judgment zone.

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John: Yeah, there's a, there's a

story behind this, but it's boring,

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but suffice to say it had me, um,

had a granola level of anxiety.

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Brian: Yes.

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I can see, I can feel

the grumpiness there.

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That's good.

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Apple.

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John: can, who consistently, consistently

over time, out, uh, two decades,

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over the past two decades, turns out

the best advertising Nike or Apple.

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Ooh, didn't even hesitate.

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Tomorrow morning, Brian.

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Aliens arrive.

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And install a new worldwide government.

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Brian: Geez, now I'm scared.

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John: gets weirder.

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Brian: Where are you going?

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John: to outlaw either beer or bourbon.

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I'm not sure why, but they're an

alien race and really intelligent,

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so they must have a reason.

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They're going to outlaw

either beer or bourbon.

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Which one of those upsets you the most?

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Brian: oh man, that's a good one.

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I need to eliminate beer.

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So, uh, I don't want them

to take away the bourbon.

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John: Oh, okay.

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All right.

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I, I didn't expect that.

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Brian: Okay.

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I mean, I don't want, I don't want

them to get rid of either, but

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John: Uh, I, I will,

I'll only do one more.

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Um, driving your own car

forever or eventually being a

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passenger in an autonomous car.

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Brian: I got to drive

your own car forever.

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I mean, this is ridiculous.

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John: Oh, wow.

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Right.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Brian: It's all about the

loss of control there.

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John: Okay.

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Loss of control or the glory

of sitting in a small living

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room doing whatever you want.

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Well, you are effortlessly and

safely escorted to your destination,

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perhaps while drinking bourbon.

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I mean, come on Brian.

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Brian: I support the evolution

of how we get from A to Z.

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I just don't know how I'm gonna,

you know, easily give up the

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control there, but yes, we do need

to do that and, uh, I'm fascinated

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by the autonomous driving thing.

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I just, I don't know how I'm going

to sit in the car and go with it,

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Give me a lot more bourbon

and I'll be all right.

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John: all right This feels like a

future episode actually because I

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remember you and I had a similar kind

of mind blown reaction Watching the

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Waymo self driving Jaguars driving

around San Francisco about a year ago,

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All

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John: all right.

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Yeah, that's it.

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I mean, I have more, but I'll save them.

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Maybe, maybe we'll do it again sometime.

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Do more lightning round after

you give it a good name.

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Brian: right.

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Well, um, I, I like it.

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Thanks for, uh, thanks

for the new segment.

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I think, I we go from that one

to a, uh, to a regular one.

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John: Oh, a regular and extremely

popular, uh, damn near viral segment.

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Brian: get me viral.

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All right.

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So John, uh, in this week's

hopelessly unattainable guest.

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Uh, I'm gonna go for, uh, I'm

gonna go for Michael Jordan.

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John: Ooh.

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Brian: So, we've had Tim Cook.

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Last week, you, uh, desperately pleaded

for Taylor Swift to join the show.

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I'm gonna go with MJ.

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And remember, these are moonshots.

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These are people that, might take

a little more effort to get on the

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show than, somebody that might be

willing to sit down and talk to,

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podcast legends like you and I.

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But,

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John: Just, just a little harder to get.

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: 00:13:11

Yeah.

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: 00:13:11

Brian: So, this is my, plea to Michael

Jordan to come and join our show.

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: 00:13:15

I, I have a lot of respect for

this guy and who wouldn't want

323

: 00:13:17

to sit down with MJ, right?

324

: 00:13:19

So let's see, let's see if

this does the trick, okay?

325

: 00:13:21

You ready?

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: 00:13:22

John: do it.

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: 00:13:22

Oh, there's a plea.

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: 00:13:23

Let's hear the plea.

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: 00:13:24

Brian: All right.

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: 00:13:24

Hello, Michael.

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: 00:13:25

Can I call you Mike?

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: 00:13:26

You're a legend, a hero to all,

an inspiration for following

333

: 00:13:29

and achieving your dreams.

334

: 00:13:30

But for me, you terrified my youth.

335

: 00:13:32

Your bulls always killed my sixers.

336

: 00:13:34

We stood no chance.

337

: 00:13:35

Everyone wore your jersey, walked in

your shoes, worshipped your every move.

338

: 00:13:39

I hated it.

339

: 00:13:40

You were better than us.

340

: 00:13:41

Better than me.

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: 00:13:42

Six championships.

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: 00:13:43

My team still hasn't won since 1983.

343

: 00:13:46

But let's make amends.

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: 00:13:47

I'm not bitter.

345

: 00:13:47

We'd love to have you on Snap Decisions,

a new podcast where we discuss and break

346

: 00:13:51

down the past and blockers in life.

347

: 00:13:53

I'm over my childish feelings.

348

: 00:13:55

We want to learn about your journey.

349

: 00:13:56

We can talk about your gold medals, your

scoring titles, your critical acclaim.

350

: 00:14:00

Nike, the riveting Last Dance documentary.

351

: 00:14:02

How you became a billionaire

th,: 1991

352

: 00:14:06

My dad and I had tickets to Game 4 of

the Eastern Conference Semifinals with

353

: 00:14:09

family friends against your bulls.

354

: 00:14:11

But we could never find those

friends outside the spectrum

355

: 00:14:13

when we tried to meet up.

356

: 00:14:15

There were no cell phones

back then, of course.

357

: 00:14:17

After 40 minutes, we

gave up and drove away.

358

: 00:14:19

My dad bought me ice cream as

I cried the whole way home.

359

: 00:14:22

You beat us by 16 and closed

out the series two days later.

360

: 00:14:26

It's alright.

361

: 00:14:26

It's fine.

362

: 00:14:27

I'm over it.

363

: 00:14:27

I really want to hear about you and your

ever thriving Jordan brand and the impact

364

: 00:14:31

you've had on kids all over the world.

365

: 00:14:33

And Charles Barkley, couldn't he

just figure out how to beat you?

366

: 00:14:36

Did it really have to be that hard?

367

: 00:14:38

I guess we'll never know.

368

: 00:14:39

But let's talk.

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: 00:14:40

I promise a stable and prominent

stage with an objective lens.

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: 00:14:43

You won't regret it.

371

: 00:14:45

Sincerely, Snap Decisions.

372

: 00:14:46

John: Wow.

373

: 00:14:47

Brian: You think?

374

: 00:14:47

You think he's gonna...

375

: 00:14:48

John: If, if, if he hears the lingering

resentment and bitterness in your

376

: 00:14:55

voice the way I do, I mean, I know

you said you've, you're over it.

377

: 00:14:59

You didn't sound even remotely over it.

378

: 00:15:01

That's true.

379

: 00:15:02

You really went to a playoff game

and you, you, you couldn't meet up

380

: 00:15:05

the people that had your tickets?

381

: 00:15:07

Is that what happened?

382

: 00:15:08

Brian: That's what happened?

383

: 00:15:09

That

384

: 00:15:10

John: God.

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: 00:15:10

Yeah.

386

: 00:15:11

Brian: was devastating.

387

: 00:15:12

John: Yeah.

388

: 00:15:12

You think?

389

: 00:15:14

Brian: Yeah, we, uh...

390

: 00:15:16

My dad heard that we were going to meet

at a, uh, at a punter statue that the,

391

: 00:15:20

that was outside veteran stadium, which

392

: 00:15:22

John: I remember the punter statue, yeah.

393

: 00:15:24

Brian: veteran stadium was right

across the street from the spectrum.

394

: 00:15:27

And, uh, it was behind the veteran

stadium, which, you know, it was

395

: 00:15:32

kind of far away from the spectrum.

396

: 00:15:33

I don't know why we thought we were

going to meet there, but apparently, uh,

397

: 00:15:35

our friends were waiting on the steps

of the spectrum for us the whole time.

398

: 00:15:39

John: Wow.

399

: 00:15:40

Are you, are you, are

400

: 00:15:42

Brian: that was that.

401

: 00:15:43

And so we, they, they did end

402

: 00:15:46

John: did you remain

friends with those people?

403

: 00:15:49

Brian: taking us to a game a

couple, a couple of years later

404

: 00:15:51

when Barclay was on the suns and

he came back to play the Sixers.

405

: 00:15:55

And of course the Sixers lost that

game too, but, um, it's all good.

406

: 00:15:59

John: What?

407

: 00:15:59

Look, let me answer your question.

408

: 00:16:01

Yes, I think MJ, we got a shot at MJ if

we land either Tim Cook or Taylor Swift.

409

: 00:16:07

I think he's, I feel like as, as,

as pioneering and trailblazing

410

: 00:16:12

as Michael Jordan is and was.

411

: 00:16:14

I think he's going to

need that credibility.

412

: 00:16:16

So we got to, we got to land

that kind of A list or that

413

: 00:16:19

moonshot to get him to say yes.

414

: 00:16:21

Brian: Yeah.

415

: 00:16:21

So what is our, who's our, who's,

who's our best shot so far out of all

416

: 00:16:25

of our hopelessly unattainable guests?

417

: 00:16:27

Is it Tim cook?

418

: 00:16:28

Is it Taylor Swift or

is it Michael Jordan?

419

: 00:16:30

John: Well, I mean, we're approaching

his 0 percent chance on all of them.

420

: 00:16:33

So it's probably a dead heat.

421

: 00:16:34

Underline hopelessly unattainable,

422

: 00:16:44

Brian: All

423

: 00:16:44

John: I'm not, I won't give up hope and

get one stuff starts falling into place.

424

: 00:16:48

You never know.

425

: 00:16:49

Brian: I like your attitude.

426

: 00:16:50

It's good.

427

: 00:16:50

John: Exactly.

428

: 00:16:50

Um, all right, well, thanks for,

thanks for coming loaded for bear

429

: 00:16:54

with your, uh, with your, uh, your

hopelessly unattainable guest and

430

: 00:16:58

your, your, your brand conversation.

431

: 00:17:00

Always a pleasure.

432

: 00:17:01

before we go, should we

tease the next guest or not?

433

: 00:17:03

Brian: Yeah.

434

: 00:17:03

Why don't you, uh, go for

435

: 00:17:04

John: Okay, I'll leave it at this.

436

: 00:17:05

This guy's basically the Michael

Jordan of Paralympic skiing.

437

: 00:17:09

How about that?

438

: 00:17:10

Brian: I like it.

439

: 00:17:11

I like it.

440

: 00:17:11

John: I'll leave it there.

441

: 00:17:12

Brian: Can't wait to see

where we go with that.

442

: 00:17:13

John: on the next episode

of Snap Decisions.

443

: 00:17:16

Brian: Chili's baby back ribs.

444

: 00:17:19

John: Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

445

: 00:17:21

Screw you.

446

: 00:17:22

See ya.