Episode 18

full
Published on:

6th May 2025

Philly, the world’s biggest outdoor art gallery: Mural Arts’ Jane Golden

A lot goes into how a city is perceived by residents and visitors. Going well beyond shaping perceptions, Mural Arts Philadelphia has been inspiring change in people and places all over the city for more than 40 years. As the nation’s largest public art program, Mural Arts and its dynamic leader, Jane Golden, has empowered communities and earned Philly the distinction of “the Mural Capital of the World.” 

Brian and John talk to Jane about her passion for the way public murals can revitalize neighborhoods, foster community pride, and influence social change.

Background content:

About Mural Arts: https://www.muralarts.org/

Jane Golden Ted Talk: Transforming a city, one mural at a time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rq4gOQAj_E

Preserving murals for future generations: https://muralarts.org/stories/a-bold-move-to-preserve-philadelphias-public-art-for-generations/

Shelly Palmer: If You Can’t Tell the Difference, There is No Difference. https://shellypalmer.com/2024/12/if-you-tell-the-difference-there-is-no-difference/?mc_cid=caa7672d1d&mc_eid=1c38b9576c

Transcript
Brian:

Hello, John.

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We're back.

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John: We are back.

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Hi Brian.

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Brian: How are you?

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John: I'm great.

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I'm enjoying some spring

weather here in Philadelphia.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Um, I, I guess it's, um,

may showers instead of April

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showers, maybe June Flowers.

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John: Oh, I'm good with the June flowers.

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Brian: Okay.

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Hopefully we get some, some spring.

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John: You know, every good

podcast starts with, uh, idle

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chit chat about the weather.

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They say,

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Brian: Is that what they say?

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John: I think they do say that.

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Brian: Nice.

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Nice.

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So, uh, so talk to me.

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What, uh, what's, what's hot?

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What have you been seeing out there?

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John: Well, I, I, you know, I think we

all are, uh, surrounded slash overwhelmed

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by news, uh, from the world of ai.

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And, um, the marketing impacts

of that are pretty profound.

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But the one thing that.

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Recently jumped out to me was,

uh, a couple pieces from one of my

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favorite, uh, authors, influencers.

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I'm not sure what he is.

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Shelly Palmer.

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I shared with you about the

explosion of ai, image generation

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technology and just how we are.

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We are moments away from it being

everywhere in marketing and advertising.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Everywhere in everything.

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Yeah,

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John: Yeah, and I, I'm seeing

a lot of LinkedIn commentary

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from people in creative fields.

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Just, you know, some level of

freaking out happening, I think.

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Brian: Oh, for sure.

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Um,

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I, I don't know that there's right

or wrong answers to any of it right

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now, as people are just trying to

figure out what, what it really means.

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And, um, I mean, I, I think the best thing

that people can do is, try to embrace it

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and try to learn how you can integrate

it into the things that you're doing,

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uh, because it's, um, it's so unclear.

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At least to normal people.

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What, what that's gonna be in a few years.

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But I think that the fact that, you know,

you take something like image generation,

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I mean, it's so, so the leaps and bounds

there are just kind of outta control.

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I.

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John: Yeah, it's insane

how, how fast it's changing.

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And, uh, you made an interesting point

there about like, you know, it, it's

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almost like we're people started to

move beyond the what's right and wrong.

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It used to be, you know, the freak

out about like, we can't replace the

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humans with creativity on creativity.

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And I.

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I, you know, I think we're seeing kind

of Yeah, you can, which is, which is a,

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a, a bitter pill to swallow, I suppose.

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But, uh, that article I mentioned, you

know, I think Shelly Palmer, I, there

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was just such a great line in there.

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Um, if the audience can't tell the

difference between AI generated and

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human generated content, or if they

don't care, then for all practical

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purposes, there is no difference.

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And like, that really hit me like, yeah.

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And I know I've seen stuff

and not realized it's ai.

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Brian: Yeah, it kind of reminds

me a little bit about how.

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Um, people handle things like

privacy, you know, like after a

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while it's like, do you really care?

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John: Good point.

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Yeah, that is a good analogy.

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Brian: 'cause like people used to

freak out that they could, you could be

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tracked online and now it's just like,

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John: Yeah.

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Right.

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Brian: course they're tracking me.

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Um, and there definitely is a little

bit of a like, just get over it, but

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that doesn't make it right either.

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So I.

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Um, so I, I did a, an interesting thing.

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Um, I asked chat GPT to create a,

um, a new image for our podcast.

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John: Oh, you did?

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Brian: I did.

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John: Wait, what is it?

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As in like a

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Brian: so I, so here's what I did, right?

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I put in a prompt about, um, I want to

have additional creative for our podcast.

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And I said, I put a link in and, uh, so.

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John: an image for a podcast of two

idiots talking about the weather.

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Brian: Yeah, exactly.

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Um, now, uh, here I'll share it

with you and we'll, we'll post this

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John: Oh my God.

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Brian: in the,

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John: I feel like, I feel like you're

really springing something on me here.

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Brian: no, no, no.

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I, I actually think that it's,

um, pretty basic, which is good.

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Um, but, um, I don't think it's too

insane, but it's interesting how, uh,

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how quickly it can create something.

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Um, and, um,

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John: So, boy, the other, the other

thing that is, I think, critical to

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most, most audio only podcasts is, uh,

talking about a visual that's on screen.

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Brian: yeah, exactly.

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John: So I'm, I'm looking at

your, I'm looking at your new,

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I guess this is cover art.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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John: A little

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Brian: It's very simple.

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Yeah.

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It's nothing outta control,

but, um, the fact that.

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Obviously, AI is all driven

by the prompts, right?

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And so anything's only gonna be as

good as the information you give it.

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Um, although, you know, I have seen

with things that it, it can try to

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introduce new ideas and new things

without you trying to prompt it.

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John: And AI is getting better at

asking you to clarify your prompt

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and provide more information.

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Brian: yeah.

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You know, the thing that I try to tell

people is just try to find new ways to,

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you know, integrate it into what you

do and, and, and attempt to see where

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it can fit and where and where you

feel like you can get value from it.

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Uh, uh, you know, so that you can,

um, get better at what you do.

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'cause I think it can do that and it can

make you move faster on things and it

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can make you have a, a starting point

that's a lot further along than, um.

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Than you would be if

you did it on your own.

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So

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John: and play around

until you figure it out.

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Brian: yeah, I mean, I'm definitely

conflicted on the, the part that,

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you know, when does it become

not you anymore in terms of the

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things that are being created.

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John: Well, my big takeaway from what you

just shared is that you got top billing,

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so you know, must have been a good prompt.

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Brian: It.

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ChatGPT knows what's up.

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John: Exactly.

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Brian: uh, the, uh, the thing that

I thought was really interesting

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in that Shelly Palmer article was,

um, among other things is the,

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uh, the comparison to the iPod

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John: Yeah.

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Brian: um, you know, the industry.

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Was really kind of driven

around sound quality.

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And the iPod changed that overnight

because they were able to, um, put

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a thousand songs on a tiny device

where no one able to do that.

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John: And we, we exchanged, uh, audio

quality for convenience, happily.

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Brian: happily and, uh, it became

much more of a commodity and, um.

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I, I think that's better in the

long run, but I mean, people that

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really like to listen to music and

the quality of music need to go

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to different lengths to do that.

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And I, I, you know, I, I think

there's people out there that'll,

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uh, allow that to still happen.

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It just, you know, how much do you want

to pay that, listen to it, the best,

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the best music quality that you can.

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John: Well, uh, we are at, um, an

interesting point where creative

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output being developed by machines

versus humans, um, is real.

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And it, it seems like the, you

know, the, the difference between

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a computer executing things and

a human creating ideas, maybe

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relevant to our conversation today.

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What do you think?

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Brian: I think so.

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John: nice.

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Yeah, we're talking to somebody who, um,

really is all about human creativity and

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I think working in a, in a medium in a

forum that might be more insulated from.

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AI image generation and the rest of

the world you and I operate in, right.

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Brian: I think so.

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I think, I think a lot of this

is pretty safe, hopefully.

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John: yeah, yeah.

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So, all right, so let's get specific

here, uh, because today we're joined

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by the powerhouse Jane Golden.

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Uh, she's a visionary leader in

public art and urban transformation.

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And as the driving force behind the Mural

Arts Philadelphia organization, Jane's

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turned a small city initiative into the

nation's largest public arts program.

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Leading to the creation of

4,000 murals that revitalize

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communities and spark social change.

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From her work in the 1980s, turning

graffiti into public art and pioneering

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innovative programs and education

and justice and behavioral health.

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Jane's impact stretches

way beyond the walls.

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She helps transform.

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She's actually.

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Help transform this entire city

of Philadelphia in the process.

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She's become not just a local icon here

in Philly, but she's gained international

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recognition with Philadelphia now

being dubbed the mural capital of

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the world, and my favorite term,

the world's largest outdoor gallery,

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Jane is a sought after speaker and

an expert in creative placemaking.

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She's received.

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Truly more awards and honorary

doctorates than we can list here.

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Uh, and we are just honored to have her.

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Jane, welcome to Snap Decisions.

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Jane: Oh, thank you.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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John: Well, we are thrilled you joined us.

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Thank you.

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So we often talk about, marketing

topics and kind of the general way

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that brands and sometimes people

present themselves to the world,

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position themselves to the world.

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Um, in your case, you've really

helped position an entire region.

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And we'd love to get into kind

of how you've done some of that.

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So, um, first of all, you've

changed the way people have

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viewed Philadelphia in general.

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And also how you've changed the

way residents feel about the

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neighborhoods in which they live.

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Could you just share a little bit

about that and more about the program?

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Hmm.

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Jane: humble, so I want to say,

like, I take a little credit, but I

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work with so many wonderful people

and artists, so I want to make

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sure they have the credit as well.

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I think that what we did early on is

create an appetite for art, and it didn't

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happen in, like, it wasn't a direct line.

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It actually was this little group was

the graffiti writers and me working

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with some community organizers, sort

of intuitively thinking about the best

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way to deliver art as a city service.

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And so it seemed to us that the

best way to start was through

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conversations and asking people

what they thought about public art.

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And mostly people were like, you know,

actually we're not interested at all.

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We want jobs.

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We want housing.

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And we would ask, be very persistent

and ask people what they wanted to see.

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And people would say, you know

what, Things are either done to us

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or not done, and the only visual

stimulation here are billboards

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advertising alcohol and tobacco.

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And we would say, well, that could change.

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Look at these beautiful murals in

LA, Chicago, San Francisco, and

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think about what we could do here.

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And people started to open up about

their lives, about their heroes, about

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neighbors, about memories, about people.

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Sad things that happened about

triumphs and we started to say to

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ourselves like, Oh, yeah, we should

listen, be respectful and produce.

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And that's what we did.

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And we would like so people we took

what we heard and turned it into

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these three story works of public art.

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And remember, that's back in the day.

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So it wasn't like.

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This was a precedent.

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Like what's going on here?

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You know, someone said to me that in

the early days, painting a mural was

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like attending a sporting event because

it was like out of the ordinary.

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It was like, look what's

going on down the block.

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Oh my God.

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And so people wanted more because

it was positive because it brought

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people into a civic space because it

was a sign that things could change

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and people cared and that government

because we were part of government could

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be effective and that was contagious.

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And people who felt like in the

margins who were part of this

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process were like emboldened by this.

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And then we thought, oh, because we

were working with community organizers.

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Oh yeah, we could be really strategic and

we could bring in other city services and

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programs and art could be like catalytic.

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And we were like, yeah, but I'm not

sure we believed it, but then we

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saw it and it was like, oh, we are

a witness to change in front of us.

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And so midway through anti graffiti, My

former boss was like, murals are popular,

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John: Yeah,

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Jane: right, they are popular

because they're doing so many things.

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They're like the

quintessential multitasker.

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And so people started to want

art here, there, everywhere.

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And the murals were becoming what

they are today, which I believe is the

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autobiography of the city of Philadelphia.

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So when you ask that question, I think

we created this want this desire this

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yearning for beauty, but also for

representation and the murals became a

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way that people put a stake in the ground

and said, I am here, and that matters.

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John: Wow.

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I love that idea of being an

autobiographical depiction of the city.

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That's really cool.

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And Brian, I don't know about you, but

as Jane was talking about listening

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first, you know, there's definitely

some marketing parallels there, right?

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The first job is to

understand your audience.

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And then, and then Jane, you

created, you know, something

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emotional for them to rally around.

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And that's kind of the heart of it.

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Jane: I was gonna say,

that's exactly right.

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I think, you know, when we testified

before city council, all the city

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council, people like mural arts.

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Why do they like mural arts?

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Because we are very respectful and

responsive to the citizens of the city.

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This is not a job.

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It is a moral imperative.

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And so in a way, we never

take anything for granted.

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So it's like, what?

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What we hear then we are, we are like.

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giving of ourselves.

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And so it's almost like

a marketing strategy.

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It's like, yes, this is like art matters.

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And this is writ large, how art

makes a difference in the world.

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And people believe it.

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And then you like, then you

don't become complacent.

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You do it more, you do it better,

you do it more effectively,

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and you never ever rest.

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That sounds exhausting, but it's true.

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John: sound like someone who never rests.

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Yes.

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Mm

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Brian: what were like some of the

first signs that like, Hey, this

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is, this is actually working.

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Jane: Oh, I completely remember

because We, um, we did the Dr.

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J mural and that was just like, oh, the

kids were like, we need to do a mural

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of a sports star and I was like, okay.

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So we got this little grant for 2, 000

and I was always showing them pictures

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of murals in LA because that's where

I used to, where I got my start.

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So they were like, we love this artist

and the artist is Ken Twitchell and

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he did these huge figurative murals

in Los Angeles, like 10 stories tall.

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So I was like, well, he's very

famous and he costs a lot of

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money and we only have $2,000.

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So they said, call him.

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Call him.

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So I called Ken Twitchell and I said, we

want you to come to Philly to do a mural.

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And he said, I would love to,

and I don't care about the money.

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I wanna do Dr.

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J in a suit.

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We're like Dr.

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J in a suit.

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I'm like, let, let's get a hold of Dr.

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J . So we found out he was

shooting a TV commercial, so we.

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Um, so he went in and like the

agent, let me go in for two

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minutes and I was like, Dr.

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J, we want to do a mural

of you, blah, blah, blah.

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I talk really fast.

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So he's like, you talk fast.

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Um, so he said, what do you, what is this?

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So I'm like, I like working

neighborhoods and try to do good.

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And we'd like to do a mural of you.

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He said, fine.

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So then he posed, we

start to do this mural.

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I can't tell you.

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It was like a traffic jam.

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Once this mural started to go up,

people are like, it's the doc.

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And like, it was like a

line of people everywhere.

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Like, did you see what's going on?

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It just caused like such

excitement and the dedication.

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There were like 500 people

there, every news team.

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Like, I couldn't believe it.

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But I should have known, because when

we did our first mural on the Spring

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Garden Street Bridge, that's just me

and like 50 graffiti writers doing

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these murals, these huge murals.

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And the former mayor, Wilson Good,

said, if you can do these murals, I

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had a part time job, in two weeks or

three weeks, some like strange amount

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of time, you will get a full time job.

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So I'm like, don't count

us out, we're doing this.

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So we worked at night under flashlights,

and the kids were running, they

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were painting, painting, painting.

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People stopped with food.

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The news came.

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I couldn't, like, I was like, what

is going on here in Philadelphia?

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Because I had worked, I had

gone to Stanford, moved to LA.

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I did murals in LA.

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Murals are everywhere in LA.

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It was like, eh, you know, and here

in Philly, it was like, oh my God.

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Oh, that's.

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I knew we were on to something.

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It was like the people love it.

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John: Yeah.

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So, obviously people who appreciate

art would, would gravitate towards us.

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You probably expected that.

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Who was the, who were the unexpected

people who kind of came rallying

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around you that you didn't see coming?

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Jane: I think it was

people in city government.

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I think it was people you know who

were block captains community leaders.

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I mean, people who felt pretty sometimes

pretty distant from art and and actually

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felt like we're very direct with me

like we're not going to the museum.

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And it's like and like something that's,

you know, we're a miles from any anchor

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arts institution and like, really, we have

very critical issues in this neighborhood.

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I felt like.

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They really didn't care until the

mural started going up and it was

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a reflection of what they said.

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And that was very deep, profound and

moving and built a connection between

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the work of art, the artists, us and them

in a way that was almost like family.

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And that was very surprising.

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. There's a mural we did in 1989.

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I'm dating myself.

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But, um, It's faded.

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It was really, it's really faded.

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It was faded.

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And we're trying to get a new mural

there of the same subject and people

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have no, no new mural, no mural.

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We love that mural.

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And so that surprised me that people

attach so much that they felt like we

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are going to, we are going to protest.

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against mural arts.

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And it's like, well, we did the mural.

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People were like, but we love the mural.

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I'm like, I get it, but

you can't see the mural.

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It's so faded.

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So this all surprised me.

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And then, you know, you had Prince, uh,

now King Charles come to Philadelphia

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and he wanted to see the murals.

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Both be here.

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I mean, that like stuff like

that, the Pope, I mean, like

385

:

John: Yeah, we want,

386

:

Jane: broad audience.

387

:

I have to say.

388

:

John: we wanted, we

wanted to hear about that.

389

:

We wanted to hear, we know you've

hosted visitors from all over the

390

:

world and those are two big ones.

391

:

The Prince Charles, well now King

Charles to your point, and the

392

:

Pope in what, 2016 I guess, right?

393

:

What were the, what are the big

takeaways from people like that?

394

:

Like tell us some of that stories

of them coming here and, and how

395

:

they walked away with a different,

a different eye on Philly.

396

:

Jane: Well, I think, you know, art has a

way there's an universal appeal to art.

397

:

You know, it's the reason

we hang out on our walls.

398

:

We go to museums and galleries.

399

:

It's just it's something that we want.

400

:

And when it's in the environment, and

it's everywhere, it's almost like when

401

:

I feel like art is like oxygen, right?

402

:

It's just there.

403

:

It's like omnipresent.

404

:

And that's a wonderful thing.

405

:

And so you find that somebody like King

Charles, when he was walking down a

406

:

street in Mantua, first of all, there was

press there from everywhere in the world.

407

:

It was a giant crowd.

408

:

I mean, like, You know, he's famous.

409

:

So, but what was so moving to

him was like there was a mural,

410

:

a mural, a mural, a mural.

411

:

It was like this was like an

outdoor gallery and we were just

412

:

in one small part of the city.

413

:

And he grew up, he was an

artist, he painted watercolors,

414

:

we talked about art making.

415

:

But then he was really moved

because we, in a church, we had

416

:

people, we had block captains come

from all over the city and kids.

417

:

At tables who were painting the mural

because the mural, this one particular

418

:

mural was on sheets of parachute cloth,

and he came in and the excitement.

419

:

Of course, it's excitement of seeing

King Charles, but it's also he could

420

:

tell, like, there was something

about creating that was very special.

421

:

And so you had people from.

422

:

Like his security detail to the neighbors

and then other people who were part of

423

:

his entourage, like all painting together.

424

:

You know, and it wasn't unlike

other experiences that we've had.

425

:

Like when we painted the Pope's

mural we worked with 19 parishes.

426

:

Um, from the region.

427

:

We worked in the convention center.

428

:

We had people at the table

speaking many different languages.

429

:

But what could they understand?

430

:

They could understand

the act of creativity.

431

:

They could understand beauty.

432

:

They could understand please

pass the blue, give me the brush.

433

:

And we've worked in settings not

like that, where people are like

434

:

really at odds with each other,

where they're dealing with great,

435

:

there's great amount of acrimony.

436

:

And yeah, there's something

very healing and meditative and

437

:

connecting about art making and we

have seen that and that to me is as

438

:

powerful as the work of art itself.

439

:

Brian: That's great.

440

:

So.

441

:

What's different about Philly than

some of the other cities that you've

442

:

worked in, like Los Angeles, how

does it fit differently here than,

443

:

than in other places you've been?

444

:

Jane: Well, first of all, I

would say Philly is a great city.

445

:

It's a city of neighborhoods.

446

:

It's a city where people.

447

:

have really responded to our, but I think

beyond that, what really sets us apart

448

:

is that the effort has been sustained.

449

:

You know, Mayor Parker is the

sixth mayor that I've worked for.

450

:

That's really an honor to have worked for

so many mayors and that, but to see it.

451

:

And it's been lasting so long

and being really popular today.

452

:

I mean, I love it when I get

into an Uber or a cab and

453

:

people go, Oh, what do you do?

454

:

And I say, I'm with

the mural arts program.

455

:

Aren't we, don't we have the most

murals of any city in the world?

456

:

I'm like, yes, we do.

457

:

John: Nice.

458

:

Thanks.

459

:

Jane: Absolutely.

460

:

You are right.

461

:

Um, but it's really that our elected

officials have held onto this.

462

:

Philanthropy and citizens

have really helped drive this.

463

:

Vision forward to be honest with you.

464

:

So other cities are doing it, but in a

much more random fashion and I like tell

465

:

because we have a mural arts Institute

where we're working with cities from

466

:

all over the country and the world

and We always say to people come as a

467

:

team philanthropy community government

And the artists and join together

468

:

to, you have to grow deep roots so

that it's not just one or two murals,

469

:

but it's something that can sustain.

470

:

And because it's been long lasting,

we've been able to mine the social power

471

:

of art and put that to work on behalf

of citizens in ways that if you would

472

:

talk to me 20 years ago I would have not

predicted in, you know, criminal justice,

473

:

behavioral health, community development,

environmental issues, you name it.

474

:

I think that art has like an

ability to open things up to make

475

:

us look at something differently

to help us analyze, to think

476

:

creatively, to think out of the box.

477

:

Traditional interventions fail us.

478

:

They just do.

479

:

So our ability to embrace innovation

as a city is totally critical.

480

:

And artists are part of that secret sauce.

481

:

John: Wow.

482

:

All right.

483

:

So Philly's different

cause we've sustained.

484

:

I know you're modest.

485

:

You said so.

486

:

But you are a spark plug.

487

:

Are there other Jane Goldens out there?

488

:

Do other cities have someone who

has been, kind of, provided that

489

:

continuity and energy across, you

know, four decades like you have?

490

:

Jane: I mean, my long lasted my long

lasting thing is I think that's probably

491

:

pretty unusual, but I will say there are

some great leaders across the country.

492

:

You know, the woman who gave me my 1st

grant in Los Angeles, her name's Judy

493

:

Baca, and she's a very well known artist.

494

:

And she was working

with, uh, she's Chicano.

495

:

She was working with

Chicano kids in East LA.

496

:

When I met her, I applied for a

grant and I was past the deadline.

497

:

And I had, I just kept calling and

calling and calling and calling.

498

:

And I think eventually I just wore

her out and they gave me this.

499

:

This project and it was

like 300 to do a giant wall.

500

:

And so, but I learned a lot from her

and she's still, I mean, she is not,

501

:

she's running a program, but it's a

lot about digital murals and her work.

502

:

Cause she is an incredible artist.

503

:

She just had some major shows

at museums in Los Angeles.

504

:

And I learned a grittiness

from her and a tenacity, like.

505

:

She spoke truth to power.

506

:

She just kept going.

507

:

She didn't.

508

:

She just, if there was an

obstacle, she went around it.

509

:

And as a young person, I mean, I was only

like 22 years old, you know, to have that

510

:

kind of role model was very informative.

511

:

It was a really, it was very inspiring

for me to see what she was doing.

512

:

And I can see how people

tried to block her path.

513

:

And I saw that she was just undaunted.

514

:

And I'm like, yes.

515

:

Me too.

516

:

Brian: Um, you know, in marketing.

517

:

A lot of it isn't just

doing the marketing.

518

:

It's all this other stuff and dealing

with other people and stakeholders

519

:

and getting approvals and buy in.

520

:

And can you talk a little bit about

who some of the different stakeholders

521

:

are that you work with that, um, you

know, how do you create this kind

522

:

of an inclusive community, um, so

that everybody can be successful?

523

:

Whack

524

:

Jane: Well, I, you know, I'm going to

talk about some of our bigger, more

525

:

complicated projects, because in some

way, you know, it's funny when people work

526

:

here and they're like, public art is hard.

527

:

I'm like, it is not for the

faint of heart, because anything

528

:

can go wrong at any time.

529

:

It's like someone equated it to like

surfing, big wave surfing, like you're

530

:

up, you're down, you're up, you're

down, and then you're riding in.

531

:

It's like, great.

532

:

I used to surf when I was

young, so I like that.

533

:

Comparison.

534

:

Um, so I think that, um, you

try to build this village.

535

:

You're absolutely right.

536

:

So you've got to figure

out who's the community.

537

:

You've got to look at

your elected officials.

538

:

You've got to think about, like, for

our bigger projects, you have city

539

:

departments that will be involved.

540

:

Sometimes you need L& I,

sometimes it's streets.

541

:

Sometimes you have to go to the

art commission or the historical

542

:

commission, so you want to think

that and think, you know, really

543

:

seriously about who has to be involved.

544

:

Who has to be involved up front

so you sort of build your support.

545

:

And then, like marketing, you

have to sustain your support.

546

:

In fact, you sustain it and

build it and build it so it's

547

:

like a crescendo at the end.

548

:

And But along the way, you have all these

landmines that you could be hitting.

549

:

And so you've got to build a bigger

village, bigger village, bigger village.

550

:

I mean, we did 8 miles of color along the

Amtrak corridor by an artist from Berlin.

551

:

Like, that was dealing with

SEPTA, Conrail, Amtrak.

552

:

Community gardeners.

553

:

I mean, you name it.

554

:

And it was really abstract.

555

:

Oh, the graffiti writers who were

like, really testy about like, was

556

:

she going to go over their names?

557

:

And so our village was like,

here, there, there, there.

558

:

And whenever we thought we had

enough of a village, it was

559

:

like, no, there's one more.

560

:

So.

561

:

And you have to really sustain

yourself and be ready for that

562

:

because that, I love that.

563

:

Like, I probably would have been like,

really enjoyed filmmaking because

564

:

my husband's a documentary filmmaker

and he's like, you know, like every

565

:

time you do make a project, it's

like, Oh, I'm never doing it again.

566

:

And it's like, I'm never doing

it again, but yeah, I can't wait.

567

:

So, um, and then like marketing too,

you really need to hone your message.

568

:

I mean, like we had a strategic plan

done a long time ago and the plan

569

:

was this cycle: you do great art.

570

:

You talk about that art cogently,

passionately, insistently, and if you

571

:

do one and two well, you build your

family of friends, donors, supporters.

572

:

And in some way, every project, we have

to get people to believe in it, right?

573

:

So we're, how we market it, how

we talk about it, how we build

574

:

belief is really important because

that will help us have success.

575

:

Because this is work that sits out

in the world and we want it to be

576

:

embraced, loved, and respected.

577

:

Brian: Wow.

578

:

Amazing.

579

:

John: I appreciate that you're able to

kind of connect the dots here to, you

580

:

know, the thing that we do as marketers.

581

:

You've touched on a bunch of things.

582

:

And one of the ones I want to loop

back to is this idea of, you know,

583

:

art as an ability, as an, has an

ability to kind of influence change.

584

:

Tell us about the role of

artists as change makers.

585

:

Jane: I think that's what

is so fascinating to me.

586

:

I mean, I think I first saw it at work,

you know, in communities where people were

587

:

sort of skeptical, and the mural would

go up and then other things would happen.

588

:

You'd see other things percolating.

589

:

Later on, I got to see

more individual change.

590

:

And the first really profound

project that we did, we had started

591

:

working in the state prison.

592

:

In 2002, it's the fifth largest state

prison country and has several thousand

593

:

people out there for very serious crimes.

594

:

And I was very ambivalent about going

in because mostly we've worked with

595

:

young people and we went in and we,

I was very moved by the people I met.

596

:

I was, saw their talent.

597

:

They showed me their work

and we started a class.

598

:

And then we did a big project called

Healing Walls where we worked with Crime

599

:

victims, victims, advocates and the men

in the prison, and it was a very hard

600

:

class because it was a big spike in crime

in violence in our city at that time.

601

:

And the idea was.

602

:

Can we build a commonality about

what's going on in our city and can

603

:

we think of different approaches

together rather than apart.

604

:

It's a pretty lofty, complicated.

605

:

Our, our aspiration was big.

606

:

And the people from the prison

society who I love, they were like,

607

:

this is, this is really complicated.

608

:

And we had a really great, uh, um,

we had a mediator, And who is very

609

:

talented and we brought people

together to talk about this and people

610

:

were snippy and had lots of, you

know, didn't really want to listen.

611

:

Everyone claimed they had more pain.

612

:

We brought 40 people out to the

prison and would have these circles

613

:

together to talk about the design.

614

:

And I was just like many times.

615

:

I just thought this was

such a terrible idea.

616

:

And then we brought a subset of

the group into the communities.

617

:

where people felt like collectively

they were victims of crime

618

:

because of everything happening.

619

:

We brought people here, we went to a

couple churches, eventually we got these

620

:

two designs, and things started to change

when we began to paint in the prison.

621

:

The prison at the time, it had this

giant auditorium, and everybody was at

622

:

a table, and we had six people who were

either victims or victims advocates,

623

:

and six, of the men in the class.

624

:

And so suddenly, when they were painting,

the power dynamic shifted because the

625

:

men were the ones who knew how to paint.

626

:

And so people had to ask them

advice, like, should I use this?

627

:

Should I use that?

628

:

Is this the right brush?

629

:

And then, then they really started talking

about their lives in a deeper fashion.

630

:

And this went on for six months,

we had these painting sessions.

631

:

And by the end, I think the men Um,

started to understand more about sort

632

:

of they felt remorse, had a hard time

articulating it, um, discovered that

633

:

this art was a path for them to give

back in a way that was pretty, I think,

634

:

profound, and for the victims advocates

felt that they had been Doing good

635

:

work, but had seen only one part of the

story that it was a lot more complex.

636

:

And then in the community, there was

a notion that they would really need

637

:

to embrace people coming home because

a very high percentage of people.

638

:

across the state who

are in prison come home.

639

:

And I saw behavioral change.

640

:

I saw people change as a

result of this project.

641

:

And that really fed our desire to

build partnerships with the Department

642

:

of Behavioral Health, the Department

of Human Services, and the Department

643

:

of Prisons and build this work that

could really, um, move the needle,

644

:

um, individually on a community level.

645

:

And by extension, there is change

at a civic level because this

646

:

work is going on everywhere.

647

:

Brian: That's powerful.

648

:

Yeah,

649

:

Jane: Yeah, it was a

very powerful project.

650

:

It was so hard.

651

:

There's a documentary film about

it called Concrete, Steel, and

652

:

Paint, and I just look exhausted,

like, through the entire film.

653

:

Like, and you, you see me just

saying, the ship is sinking.

654

:

Like, it's just, it's not gonna work.

655

:

But it did.

656

:

I mean, that is the brilliance.

657

:

I mean, art connects, art has a way

of shining a light on our difference

658

:

and distinction, and that's Beautiful.

659

:

But it also in a very subtle, wonderful

way, um, sort of shines a light

660

:

and connects us in a way that it

underscores our commonality and humanity.

661

:

And that is something that I'll

believe for the rest of my life.

662

:

Brian: that's great.

663

:

John: I'm guessing a project

like that is hard to recreate.

664

:

are you able to take some elements of

your playbook to other cities are, are

665

:

others kind of emulating the way you

go about, uh, changing landscapes and

666

:

changing the lives of residents and

letting artists kind of influence change,

667

:

Jane: That's a great question.

668

:

I mean, I think what we learned is it's

really not about our sort of, it's not

669

:

about us like replicating ourselves, like

Dunkin Donuts or something like that.

670

:

but we've been able to connect with other

organizations doing good work who are

671

:

eager, eager to learn from us, but we

are learning from them at the same time.

672

:

So there is a degree of mutuality, but I

feel as though just we had a conference

673

:

here a year ago, and we had people come

from other cities and they were talking

674

:

about the impact of working with us.

675

:

And that was very moving as well.

676

:

I mean, I feel that That there are a lot

of city who their their work is now off

677

:

and running and we help plant the seeds.

678

:

You know, we didn't do it alone.

679

:

We did it with them.

680

:

It was really good partnership,

but I feel as though they were able

681

:

to take something from the city of

Philadelphia and just go off and run.

682

:

And I know for a fact that there are

mayors around the country allocating

683

:

resources to their departments of

arts and culture based on our model.

684

:

And that to me is like Phenomenal.

685

:

It's really that that is really exciting.

686

:

And, you know, like when we, um, we

went to Detroit last year, because USA

687

:

Today does this, like a list of the

top 10 cities with the most street art.

688

:

And so the head of arts and

culture invited all 10 cities.

689

:

And it was like wonderful because I

feel like we don't enough speak with

690

:

a collective voice about the power

of art or art and civic engagement,

691

:

art and social issues, art in

the public, period, just for its

692

:

beauty and sense of wonder and awe.

693

:

Um, and that was really wonderful

because, you know, together you

694

:

can talk about resources and shared

problems and how people get around

695

:

those problems and how you solve it.

696

:

So I thought that was really wonderful.

697

:

So I think they, through

the Mural Arts Institute.

698

:

We've sort of, we've made some, I think,

lifelong friends in other cities, and

699

:

we can inform and inspire each other.

700

:

Brian: The, um, you talked about,

um, you know, working under so many

701

:

administrations in Philadelphia and

obviously the, the council people are, um,

702

:

coming in and out, uh, every few years,

is it difficult to, uh, have to kind of

703

:

refresh your, the new government around

what you guys do and the value you bring?

704

:

Do you feel like that's a constant thing

or, do you feel pretty grounded right

705

:

now with how established you guys are?

706

:

Jane: I think we feel pretty grounded.

707

:

It's not like a new day, because, you

know, so many people who were mayors

708

:

have been council people, and we

worked with them when they were council

709

:

people, and there are enough people,

well, there are always new people

710

:

in departments, and it is, you know,

It's not a challenge, but it's our

711

:

challenge to make new allies, right?

712

:

It's just the way it is.

713

:

And, um, but there are always some people

who are still there and we draw on them.

714

:

You know, like today I was talking

to the person Carlton Williams, who

715

:

runs Clean and Green for Mayor Parker.

716

:

I mean, I've known Carlton for

probably 25 years, you know, so

717

:

we, that's nice because there's

so much goodwill and trust.

718

:

And, you know, I have, I have no

problem going to Carlton with an idea.

719

:

I'm in it.

720

:

He expects that of me.

721

:

John: I'm surprised to hear

you have an idea of it.

722

:

That's amazing.

723

:

It takes that long.

724

:

You mentioned Detroit a minute ago.

725

:

I would love for you to Meet a guy

we had on a podcast a little while

726

:

ago who he does sonic branding and

one of his projects was also in

727

:

Detroit where they created, um, they

created some soundscapes, um, and in

728

:

a very urban area, they brought in

natural sounds and kind of tried to

729

:

influence the way people felt about

where they were in an urban landscape

730

:

to feel more connected to nature.

731

:

And it's really interesting.

732

:

I started thinking when you were

talking about Detroit, like, wow,

733

:

I wonder if some of these visual.

734

:

backdrops with audio on top of it.

735

:

I wonder if there's something

that would be cool to do there

736

:

Jane: That

737

:

John: and have you done it?

738

:

Jane: No, no.

739

:

Have we done it?

740

:

No, we haven't done that.

741

:

You know what we did?

742

:

We had a composer make wind

chimes with the neighbors so

743

:

that you could hear the beauty.

744

:

And then she attached it to the wall.

745

:

So that was really.

746

:

Quite lovely.

747

:

So occasionally we've infused sound

but but I would love to connect

748

:

with that person that that's great.

749

:

But I thought of another project is when

we were talking about the influence.

750

:

I just like we did this project in Hanoi.

751

:

We helped get this project started.

752

:

We worked with artists and journalists.

753

:

The aspiration was to create a three

mile long mural, all mosaic mural about

754

:

the thousand year history of Hanoi.

755

:

And we worked on that together

with this big team of people.

756

:

And now it's like a landmark.

757

:

It's a landmark, and I remember when

I was in Hanoi, speaking to young

758

:

artists, it was a crowd of about 200

people, there was translation, and I

759

:

remember thinking, like, I don't know

these people, we're from different,

760

:

like, different planets, right?

761

:

And yet we are, like,

relating really well.

762

:

And they, they were so excited, and that's

happened to us a couple times in Athens.

763

:

We did that in Columbia.

764

:

We were there in Meine, in uh,

Bogota, and again in Bogota.

765

:

Like all the kids are like muralistas.

766

:

I'm like, I love you a muralista too.

767

:

Brian: Can you talk a little bit

about how some of the local companies

768

:

are doing good by getting involved?

769

:

And how do you, how do you work

with some of the businesses,

770

:

um, to do what you guys do?

771

:

Jane: we love partnership so

much and we try to make it

772

:

really value added to people.

773

:

Um, you know, because like,

um, I'm a very aspirational

774

:

person, but I'm very practical.

775

:

I'm a pragmatist at heart.

776

:

So, um, like TD Bank supports

our fellowship program for black

777

:

artists and we're on year six.

778

:

And we just had a reception the other

night and the excitement was palpable.

779

:

I mean, this is over like.

780

:

I don't know, something like

135, 140 artists who feel really

781

:

impacted by this fellowship program.

782

:

I mean, where they're

getting all kinds of support.

783

:

So that's like very tangible.

784

:

Citizens Bank, they support our wall ball.

785

:

So it's like, that's a way we raise

invaluable general operating money.

786

:

Um, we are about to do

some work with Snipes.

787

:

We work, there are different

banks that support us.

788

:

Bank of America has been great to us.

789

:

We work with HUP.

790

:

We're doing a project with them.

791

:

We've worked with Jefferson.

792

:

It's very, it's like, really varied.

793

:

It's it's all it's many different people.

794

:

And it's like, sometimes it's small

businesses that contribute to a project.

795

:

And sometimes it's a larger.

796

:

You know, I feel like it's, you know,

mural arts is so public that there

797

:

are a lot of corporations who feel

invaluable, and we leverage money.

798

:

We're big leveragers.

799

:

So we'll in the pot.

800

:

There's always some public dollars

and private dollars because I feel

801

:

there are limits to both, and we

should just be really smart, and we

802

:

should just stretch everything as

far as we can and then mix it up and

803

:

try to do as much work as possible.

804

:

John: You, um, it's interesting,

there's a real clear theme emerging

805

:

here about art's ability to kind of

universally collect people, connect

806

:

people of all types of backgrounds.

807

:

You know, just now, like you're

talking about from the, from the public

808

:

sphere, from the private sphere, from

criminals to kids to, you know, Hanoi

809

:

to Philly, like really clear that.

810

:

You know, you feel strongly about how art

can connect everybody, no matter what.

811

:

Jane: right.

812

:

And I think it's not even just it's

connecting for sure, but it's also like

813

:

thinking about different critical issues.

814

:

And this is where it's sort of universal

with people across the country.

815

:

Like, what are the issues that

cities are grappling with?

816

:

Like, housing and security.

817

:

We have a program, Color Me Back.

818

:

We pay people.

819

:

We train them in public art making.

820

:

And so, people are learning skills,

um, I Getting sort of help with social

821

:

services, uh, feeling that there's a path

out and, and creating beauty in our city.

822

:

So by creating beauty in very public

spaces, people who have felt like they,

823

:

you know, alienated, isolated, like

feel their world is closing in on them.

824

:

Suddenly have people saying

to them, this is so beautiful.

825

:

Thank you so much.

826

:

You've changed my neighborhood.

827

:

I never wanted to walk

down this concourse.

828

:

Now I feel safe.

829

:

It is a complete.

830

:

paradigm shift.

831

:

So it's like how do we sort of

address, we think about people

832

:

coming home from incarceration.

833

:

How can they do good through art?

834

:

Think about people who are

struggling with housing insecurity

835

:

or trauma or mental health issues.

836

:

How about young people who love art but

go to schools where art is not an option?

837

:

So where, where do we

fit in in the ecosystem?

838

:

So part of this is very, very aware

that I think people should have beauty.

839

:

Period.

840

:

And it's a matter of equity.

841

:

Let's have it everywhere.

842

:

I love galleries and museums.

843

:

I don't think art belongs

exclusively behind those walls.

844

:

So while it's a connector, it's also

an incubator, it's a foundation, it's a

845

:

platform, it's an object, it's a catalyst.

846

:

All existing side by side

in the life of our city.

847

:

And that to me is wonderful.

848

:

Somebody once said to me, it was a

funder, and we took, we had a, we

849

:

drove them around, I drove them around.

850

:

And if you're driving around with me,

I'm going to like really wear you out.

851

:

And so then at the end of the day,

she said, you know, this is um, a

852

:

deceptively complex organization.

853

:

And I thought that was really well said.

854

:

Brian: That's awesome.

855

:

I love the idea of, you know, the murals

are like the autobiography of the city.

856

:

I feel like you've been able to really

capture the history of the city and

857

:

what brings it together in different

neighborhoods and different places.

858

:

And if you look at kind of when you

started in the 80s in Philly and all

859

:

the different things that have even just

happened since then, and even during

860

:

those tumultuous times in the 80s.

861

:

it's just amazing how art can kind

of bring things together and murals

862

:

can kind of be the vessel for that.

863

:

And, um, I just feel like the

type of access and collaboration

864

:

are just fantastic way

to, , help a city come together.

865

:

Jane: Yeah, I agree.

866

:

And thank you for referencing those

days back in the 80s and the early 90s.

867

:

I mean, I think it was so unexpected.

868

:

I remember we used to at least when

I started, we had a drawing class

869

:

at this center community center

in West Philly, and the graffiti

870

:

writers would go there at night.

871

:

And, I can't even believe it,

and they were drawing, like,

872

:

bowls of fruit, just like that.

873

:

And I invited Wilson Good, and I

said, you have to come, you have to

874

:

come see my, my still life class.

875

:

And he walked in, he goes, I'm glad

you invited me, because if I didn't

876

:

see it, I would not believe you.

877

:

Because everybody was

so intent on drawing.

878

:

And they would talk, you know, during

breaks, they would just tell these

879

:

graffiti stories, you know, wild,

crazy stories, but then they'd get

880

:

back and they would draw again.

881

:

And it was just like.

882

:

So interesting.

883

:

And the early murals were so captivating.

884

:

I remember we would work year round.

885

:

My, my former boss used to make

us work in all kinds of weather.

886

:

So we would, we did this mural of

Fifth and Allegheny by the railroad

887

:

tracks and the kids, they were from

the Bronx and they would like, they

888

:

would make a fire in the trash can.

889

:

I'm sure like all this

was hugely dangerous.

890

:

And they would go, it's like the Bronx.

891

:

I'm like, I know, but it's Philly.

892

:

And then these rival wall writing gangs

would come by and they taunt each other.

893

:

And I, then we had to get

everyone painting together.

894

:

So everyone was And I remember

like thinking along the way,

895

:

like we was a total grassroots

organization, but it was working.

896

:

I mean, I think that was

sort of the magic of it.

897

:

And when people say, Oh, anti graffiti

that sounds like such an impressive name.

898

:

I'm like, you know what it was

a youth development program.

899

:

We employ 25, 000 kids over 10 years

and many of them are like, okay.

900

:

I'm in touch with and are

leading really interesting lives.

901

:

It was, it was a path for

something to do somewhere else.

902

:

I used to say to them, look, I can't

teach you how to use spray paint.

903

:

You know how to do that, but I'm

going to teach, I can teach you other

904

:

things and hopefully that your world

opens up and that's what happened.

905

:

John: I'm having a good time picturing

you in the middle of two rival

906

:

Jane: I know,

907

:

John: of kids from the Bronx

and Philly about ready to come

908

:

Jane: was the Bronx Bombers and

High Class Lunatics, I was like,

909

:

I can't believe I remember them.

910

:

John: And you're in the middle

waving a paintbrush saying,

911

:

Jane: know, they already

912

:

John: paint together.

913

:

Brian: Hey, it works.

914

:

John: Yeah.

915

:

Um, Brian, Jane mentioned, um, the

idea of innovation at some point

916

:

earlier, and then I asked a question,

but I know you lit up because you've

917

:

always liked to ask about innovation.

918

:

So I'm going to turn that over to you.

919

:

Brian: Yeah.

920

:

I mean, um, what, what other types

of innovative programs are you seeing

921

:

from the other cities across the globe?

922

:

You know, we talked about what, how Philly

brings things to other places, you know,

923

:

where you, what do you want to bring to

Philly that some other people are doing?

924

:

Jane: Well, I think some cities are

doing very serious artist residency

925

:

programs . And they They sort of

give the artist a problem to solve.

926

:

And, uh, it's worked really well in

Minneapolis and in New York and L.

927

:

A.

928

:

Um, and that to me has been

really interesting to see.

929

:

I look at Miami and some of their

zoning and their policy work they're

930

:

doing around public art making.

931

:

And I just think that they have a way

of infusing funding into the public art

932

:

sphere that I haven't seen here where.

933

:

All new buildings, a percentage

has to go to public art or murals.

934

:

And so you have an abundance

of public art being created.

935

:

Um, there are other cities like in

New York and in LA, how they think

936

:

about, you know, senior centers.

937

:

Or health centers and really consistently

paying both a visual attention

938

:

to to centers like that, but also

have an artist residency program.

939

:

Um, I just I feel like there's there

are things going on in other cities.

940

:

I think Chicago is amazing for the

investment they make in public space.

941

:

I mean, I can't even imagine what

their budget is for cultural affairs.

942

:

It must be over 100 million dollars.

943

:

I mean, it's just This is the, you

know, like, even when I was, I was

944

:

in Hong Kong for, I was presenting

on our work just a year ago.

945

:

And I noticed that a lot of

the spaces were really lit at

946

:

night, lit up in beautiful ways.

947

:

And some of the lighting

was very artistically done.

948

:

And I just thought, Ooh, I would love

to see that here in Philadelphia.

949

:

You know, um.

950

:

So I think I always am paying

attention to other cities because I

951

:

think that there's so much to learn.,

952

:

You know, we're building a floating

laboratory performing art space at

953

:

Bartram's garden that by day, it will

be a place where young people can

954

:

learn about environmental science.

955

:

And by night, it will be a place

where people could perform or

956

:

just meditate on the river.

957

:

It's an 8 million endeavor designed by

the dean of architecture at Cornell.

958

:

And it was really looking at projects

in other cities that excited us

959

:

that had us start to think about

developing a partnership with the

960

:

artist mission you and looking at

the work she done around globally,

961

:

actually, so it's like, what can we go?

962

:

I like what the Philadelphia

citizen has ideas.

963

:

We should steal.

964

:

And I think the other thing is ideas.

965

:

We can export because we're also doing

some great things in Philadelphia.

966

:

So it's, it's like achieving that balance.

967

:

But I'm, I'm somebody who I am

infinitely curious about what's

968

:

going on around the world.

969

:

Okay.

970

:

John: Doing great things in Philly,

I think is an understatement and, uh,

971

:

your impact here and abroad and across

the country is really cool to see.

972

:

Thank you for sharing so

much with us about this.

973

:

This

974

:

Jane: Oh, I really

enjoyed the conversation.

975

:

It's great.

976

:

John: us too.

977

:

. Brian: Uh, before we let you go, um,

what are, what are some things that

978

:

are brewing, uh, in Philly that you're

working on and that you can tell us about?

979

:

Jane: Well, one project that

will be dedicated in the

980

:

summer of 2026 is float lab.

981

:

That's the performing arts space.

982

:

I just talked about in the laboratory.

983

:

The other project we're doing is

called printmaking for the people and

984

:

we will be doing printmaking programs

at most of our library branches.

985

:

And we will be giving a prompt to

people to think about democracy today.

986

:

And then we will have, we'll collect

all the prints for probably thousands,

987

:

and we'll have a major citywide

exhibition and all that material will

988

:

get turned into a work of public art

that will be a lasting Testament so

989

:

that we can remember this period of

time in our city and in our nation.

990

:

And then, um, we're

doing a gateway project.

991

:

I'm very excited about this, doing an

analysis of what people see when they

992

:

leave and enter Philadelphia and creating

some beautiful, awesome works of art.

993

:

Yay.

994

:

So that's really, uh, great.

995

:

And then we have a project called

an initiative called the people's

996

:

budget, which is about using art to,

um, to help build transparency and

997

:

knowledge around our city's budget.

998

:

And we have teach ins and budget one

on ones going on around the city.

999

:

And we'll have a symposium that year

and, um, yeah, and some other things

:

00:48:39,604 --> 00:48:42,693

cooking, but that's just a few of our

projects that's going on and we're

:

00:48:42,693 --> 00:48:46,013

very excited about Shepard Ferry is

going to be coming back to do a mural.

:

00:48:46,233 --> 00:48:47,623

Um, so we're excited about that.

:

00:48:47,833 --> 00:48:48,983

And then Jesse crimes.

:

00:48:49,058 --> 00:48:50,378

Who is quite famous.

:

00:48:50,378 --> 00:48:51,418

He was in federal prison.

:

00:48:51,418 --> 00:48:54,968

He got out, he worked with us cause we

have our program and now he is a show

:

00:48:54,968 --> 00:48:56,788

with the Met, the Met is buying his work.

:

00:48:56,948 --> 00:48:57,748

It's unbelievable.

:

00:48:57,938 --> 00:48:59,918

And we're going to be doing a big

quilt making project with him.

:

00:49:00,118 --> 00:49:00,468

So

:

00:49:00,973 --> 00:49:01,473

John: Wow.

:

00:49:01,638 --> 00:49:02,588

Jane: just a few things.

:

00:49:02,653 --> 00:49:03,283

John: Just a few.

:

00:49:03,313 --> 00:49:03,913

So, all right.

:

00:49:03,913 --> 00:49:07,193

Well, you, you, congratulations on

your 40th anniversary last year.

:

00:49:07,213 --> 00:49:09,353

It doesn't sound like you're

slowing things down at all.

:

00:49:09,438 --> 00:49:11,388

Jane: No, no, it can never slow down.

:

00:49:11,423 --> 00:49:11,843

John: Lord.

:

00:49:12,583 --> 00:49:12,903

Brian: No.

:

00:49:13,278 --> 00:49:14,778

Jane: Someone once said

that it was like a shark.

:

00:49:14,778 --> 00:49:16,988

They said, if sharks stop, they die.

:

00:49:17,078 --> 00:49:18,858

I'm like, yikes, I'll never stop.

:

00:49:20,953 --> 00:49:21,233

John: Well,

:

00:49:21,528 --> 00:49:22,518

Jane: no, we're not slowing down.

:

00:49:22,783 --> 00:49:23,063

John: All right.

:

00:49:23,063 --> 00:49:26,313

Well, if you ever stop doing this,

please come represent us because Brian,

:

00:49:26,313 --> 00:49:29,523

I can't think of anyone better to, to

put out there in front of the world

:

00:49:29,573 --> 00:49:31,543

in terms of, uh, energy and ideas.

:

00:49:31,553 --> 00:49:31,573

You

:

00:49:31,923 --> 00:49:32,333

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:49:32,498 --> 00:49:32,598

Jane: you.

:

00:49:32,598 --> 00:49:34,388

It's been such a pleasure

talking to you both.

:

00:49:34,433 --> 00:49:35,293

John: know, our pleasure.

:

00:49:35,293 --> 00:49:36,873

Thank you so much for joining us.

:

00:49:37,458 --> 00:49:37,858

Jane: Okay.

:

00:49:38,623 --> 00:49:39,003

Brian: Bye.

:

00:49:41,233 --> 00:49:41,863

Wow, John.

:

00:49:41,863 --> 00:49:43,513

That was really inspirational.

:

00:49:44,053 --> 00:49:44,563

John: About her.

:

00:49:44,563 --> 00:49:44,893

Huh?

:

00:49:45,343 --> 00:49:45,793

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:49:46,033 --> 00:49:46,783

John: Bundle of energy.

:

00:49:47,623 --> 00:49:47,953

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:49:47,953 --> 00:49:55,153

Just, uh, you know, the

creativity and the, um, motivation

:

00:49:55,153 --> 00:49:57,133

to do something great and,

:

00:49:57,183 --> 00:50:00,663

John: and just the, the, the,

the enthusiasm for making change,

:

00:50:00,693 --> 00:50:04,113

you know, still 40 years into

it, just you still as fired up.

:

00:50:04,293 --> 00:50:06,588

It seems like as fired up now

as you must have been then.

:

00:50:07,728 --> 00:50:08,298

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:50:08,388 --> 00:50:08,808

Yeah.

:

00:50:08,808 --> 00:50:13,218

And, uh, it's a great testament

to, um, everything she's been able

:

00:50:13,218 --> 00:50:18,298

to do and, I think that younger

generations are gonna, um, you

:

00:50:18,298 --> 00:50:19,858

know, continue to benefit from that.

:

00:50:19,858 --> 00:50:23,848

So it's, uh, there's some really

fantastic things that they've done and,

:

00:50:23,938 --> 00:50:26,128

and, and they'll stand the test of time.

:

00:50:26,668 --> 00:50:27,898

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:

00:50:27,958 --> 00:50:33,268

It does feel like a more permanent, uh,

form of expression than, than so much

:

00:50:33,268 --> 00:50:36,208

of the stuff that you and I work on

every day in, in the world of marketing.

:

00:50:36,208 --> 00:50:40,138

So, um, yeah, and, and a, a

real love letter to the city.

:

00:50:40,138 --> 00:50:41,608

So it's, it's, it's.

:

00:50:41,868 --> 00:50:43,248

It was awesome to hear from her,

:

00:50:44,143 --> 00:50:44,503

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:50:44,508 --> 00:50:45,103

That's awesome.

:

00:50:45,318 --> 00:50:45,708

John: and you're right.

:

00:50:45,708 --> 00:50:48,828

I hope, I hope next, I hope generations

that follow will, uh, kind of pick

:

00:50:48,828 --> 00:50:52,128

up her, pick up her torch and, and

keep doing cool stuff like this.

:

00:50:53,023 --> 00:50:53,683

Brian: Absolutely.

:

00:50:53,953 --> 00:50:54,493

Absolutely.

:

00:50:55,368 --> 00:50:55,638

John: All right, man.

:

00:50:55,638 --> 00:50:56,778

Well, you have a lovely day.

:

00:50:58,258 --> 00:50:59,158

Brian: You as well.

:

00:50:59,638 --> 00:51:00,268

You as well.

:

00:51:00,708 --> 00:51:01,428

John: go, go.

:

00:51:01,428 --> 00:51:04,608

Uh, go drive around the

city and enjoy some murals.

:

00:51:05,518 --> 00:51:06,568

Brian: Absolutely.

:

00:51:06,928 --> 00:51:07,738

Take it all in.

:

00:51:08,298 --> 00:51:08,808

John: All right, man.

:

00:51:08,808 --> 00:51:09,468

Take care.

:

00:51:09,958 --> 00:51:10,198

Brian: Say it

:

00:51:10,638 --> 00:51:11,448

John: Till next time.

:

00:51:12,573 --> 00:51:12,923

Brian: later.

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About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia