Think Big, Think Fast: X&O's Eric Segal
The Big Game (aka The Super Bowl) keeps getting bigger. As brands try to find new ways to break through, Eric Segal, accomplished ad guy with plenty of Super Bowl advertising cred, sees a marketing world that requires a fresh method for creating big brand ideas. He talks about what marketers are looking for and an agile new approach that veers away from the big ad agency models of the past.
John and Brian talk about Starbuck’s refreshed positioning, debate the proper ways to customize coffee, and unabashedly support their hometown underdogs, The Philadelphia Eagles. Go birds!
Key topics and chapter markers:
(00:52): What’s brewing at Starbucks. And an argument
(07:29): Introducing advertising pro Eric Segal, X&O
(11:00): The Super Bowl as a cultural opportunity
(17:12): Crashing the Super Bowl with user generated content
(22:02): Starting a new model for big brand ideas
(27:47): A completely different work: a thousand different things
(32:22): The role of specialists
(42:22): Who’s holding the brand together?
(46:11): Sell me. But entertain me.
(48:29): Building a Super Bowl ad: how long should it take?
(55:04): Kicking the Giants while they’re down
Background content:
https://www.adweek.com/agencies/build-teams-not-departments/
https://adage.com/article/special-report-super-bowl/starbucks-chief-brand-officer-tressie-lieberman-super-bowl-marketing-approach/2601161
https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/crash-the-super-bowl-creators-doritos-evolution-marketing/
Transcript
eh?
2
:Brian: John, new year,
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:John: this session
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:Brian: new us.
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:I like it.
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:John: Eagles, Randall Cunningham, Jersey.
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:Brian: Hey, I gotta do something,
it's the best I can do right now.
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:John: Yeah, we're recording this the
Friday before the Super Bowl, that the
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:Eagles will win against the Chiefs,
and this podcast will age poorly if
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:I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.
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:Brian: I'll never forgive you
for that, if that happens.
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:if that has happened, because as we'll
be listening to this, it'll be after.
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:But, Speaking of the big game, our
big guest today has a lot of big
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:ideas on how brands, can successfully
interact with, their customers and
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:consumers overall, with the big game.
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:And, we'll get to that
in a couple of minutes.
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:John: First, I wanted to ask you a little
bit about, you'd sent me an article about
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:Starbucks having an ad in the Super Bowl.
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:And you and I have been talking about
Starbucks and some of the changes that
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:your new CEO and CMO have been making.
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:Coming in with a little bit of a
reinvigoration and going back to
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:kind of some of the brand's origin.
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:Brian: Yeah.
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:Starbucks has been a little bit stale.
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:Recently of late.
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:The former Chipotle CEO, Brian Nickel
moved over to Starbucks and really
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:trying to refresh what they're doing.
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:You and I've had some, some gentle,
gentle conversations about some of the,
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:John: So, so we've, we've had some
behind the scenes arguments that bubbled
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:over into a LinkedIn post, didn't it?
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:Brian: it.
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:Yeah.
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:John: All right, so let's,
so let's share that.
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:You and I have different points of view
about one of the big changes the CEO
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:made, which is among many other things,
this is kind of small potatoes, but it
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:struck me, bringing back the condiment
bar so that customers can put their own
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:creamer and sweeteners into their coffee.
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:And you and I have different
perspectives on that.
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:Do we not?
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:Brian: Yeah, I think
it's it's disgusting, but
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:John: Disgusting.
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:Say more.
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:Brian: zone.
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:Well, I mean, you know, if I'm
going to Starbucks to pay double the
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:cost of coffee, I kind of want my
coffee complete, you know, I I felt
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:like you know, I trust the barista,
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:John: And how do,
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:Brian: to put faith in the barista.
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:John: and how do you consider
your coffee complete?
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:What kind of coffee are you ordering?
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:Brian: Well,
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:John: Huh.
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:Black, right?
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:Okay.
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:Brian: today, today, I've gone black
coffee, but for years and years and years
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:I had put cream and sugar in my coffee
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:John: Okay.
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:Brian: and then I weaned off the
sugar and then I weaned off the cream.
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:John: okay.
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:Well, good for you.
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:So you've got some credibility.
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:My counterpoint to your,
you don't like the mess.
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:I don't like when I walk away with a
coffee that has entirely the wrong.
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:amount of sweetener and creamer
and how does a barista know?
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:Brian: because they're a barista,
how do you know if you get the, the,
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:the, the, the perfect amount of, if
you're ordering a cocktail from a
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:bar, you trust the bartender to make
sure that it's done in a way that is.
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:Is, is sufficient for you.
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:John: I appreciate the analogy and
I also want to tell you to shut up.
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:Brian: I, I just, what about if
you're ordering a coffee to go,
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:and you show up, and does that mean
that you should be putting your own
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:creamer in when you're on the go?
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:John: What about, what about you're in a
hurry and all you want is the damn coffee
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:so you can get out of there and now you
got to wait for nine drinks in front
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:of you while a barista, you know, lines
it up behind all the mocha frappuccino
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:lattes that are piled up in front of me.
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:Brian: Hey, that's not, that's
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:John: It was the most
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:Brian: paying double.
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:That's why I'm paying double.
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:John: Oh, boy.
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:It's a good thing we're in
different locations right now.
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:Hehehehe.
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:Alright, so we're not going
to resolve this debate,
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:Brian: No, no, we will not.
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:John: but they resolved it
for us by bringing it back.
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:And some other things they're
bringing back, according to this
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:new TV spot, that's airing in the
Super Bowl, or before the Super Bowl.
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:They're bringing back the handwritten
name on there instead of the sticker.
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:You probably hate that, too.
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:Brian: I like the the handwritten
name that they would always
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:screw up the names on.
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:I thought as part of their, that's
a good part of their culture.
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:You don't need to, that's
fine, but you know.
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:Hey, more time writing on the cup
instead of figuring out the right
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:amount of coffee sugar and cream,
but that's, you know, that's fine.
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:John: More time just handing me
my coffee so I can fix it myself.
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:All right.
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:Can we, do you, do you want to
talk real quickly about what,
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:what they're doing in this,
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:Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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:So let's talk about, let's talk
about that if I can get off
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:the subject of the creamer bar,
the disgusting, inhumid coffee
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:John: let it rest.
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:Brian: All right.
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:So you know, like we said Starbucks has
been a little stale the last few years.
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:They're trying to
reinvigorate it a little bit.
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:And some of this marketing, I
think it goes in that direction.
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:One of the interesting things
they're doing the day after the
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:Super Bowl is a free coffee Monday.
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:I want to get your thoughts on that.
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:Do you feel like that's a little
beneath them to do a free coffee?
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:It doesn't really, I don't know that
that kind of jibes with who Starbucks
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:has always kind of felt like they
were, but Interesting approach.
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:Not that I'm turning
down a free coffee, but
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:John: Yeah.
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:You know, I hadn't thought of that, but,
but I probably would say, yeah, that would
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:feel like it's cheapening the brand if it
wasn't tied to loyalty, loyalty members.
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:So I don't know why that shifts it for me.
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:It tells me that it's for the
people who actually are engaged
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:with the brand already, or it'll
get people maybe to download the app
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:and become a loyalty member which
I'm sure is of huge value to them.
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:Brian: yeah, and
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:John: I get it.
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:Brian: yeah, and you know, I'd like them.
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:I like that.
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:They're actually doing the
spot outside the game too.
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:So it's a, you know, it's a super
bowl timed event or a timed ad.
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:And the, the event is around the super
bowl too, around the free coffee Monday,
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:but they're not necessarily spending the
billion dollars to run the ad in the game.
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:So that's interesting.
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:John: Yeah, I also I'm taking I'm choosing
to take it as a like a celebration
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:beverage for the day after my team wins.
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:And if worst case happens, they
lose, then it's a consolation coffee.
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:Either way.
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:I feel like it's a nice gesture.
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:Brian: And I do like the
focus on the barista.
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:I feel like bringing it back to your
people, and that's who you relate to,
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:and that's why they know what kind of,
how much coffee and creamer that I need.
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:John: yeah.
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:Well, well
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:Brian: Creamer in my coffee.
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:Anyway,
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:John: Yeah.
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:Hey, we're not going too deep into
the, the, the, the execution, but
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:you touched on, yes, I liked that.
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:They're showcasing the baristas.
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:I also liked that they're
bringing energy back.
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:I mean, like coffee should be about that.
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:And for it, I can't remember the last
time if ever Starbucks was really about
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:kind of bringing energy to your day.
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:I, I, I really liked that
idea, that positioning.
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:So, you know, cheers to their new
chief brand officer Tressie Lieberman.
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:An anomaly for getting to, I think, a
message that feels like a brand like,
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:yeah, I might want to go back in there
and kind of like feel the energy.
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:Brian: yeah, and you know,
since they're on every other
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:block you're probably near one.
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:John: I am near one.
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:Yeah.
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:All right.
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:So should we go over to our guests now?
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:Brian: let's do it.
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:All right, John, I'm real
excited about our guest today.
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:He's a 20 plus year veteran in
advertising and marketing roles.
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:He's been a chief creative officer
for a number of ad agencies,
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:including Anomaly New York.
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:He was the executive creative
director for the Gray Group.
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:Agencies he's helped lead were
named ad age agency of the year.
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:Twice were named to Fast Company's
most innovative companies.
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:He's contributed to five
top 10 Super Bowl ads.
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:His work has been awarded at Cannes,
D&AD the one show Effies and Emmys.
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:He's had a major league baseball
campaign quoted by President Obama.
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:He was named to Ad Agency's 40 under 40.
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:In 2015, and today he's the founder
of X and O, an agency focused on big
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:ideas at pace from industry experts.
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:Welcome to the show, Eric Segel.
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:Eric: Thank you, fellas.
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:Very nice to be here.
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:John: glad you're
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:Eric: I it hurt a little bit.
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:It was, I was listening to that intro.
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:I'm like, wow, guy sounds
like he knows what he's doing.
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:And then I liked that you threw
the year in that I was 40 under
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:40 because I immediately started
doing math and felt fucking old.
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:So
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:Brian: I was I was trying to
think how gracefully to say
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:that, but I think we're all
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:Eric: could have just skipped the
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:Brian: farther away from that.
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:Yeah.
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:John: We'll,
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:Eric: have just left the year
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:John: we will edit out the 2015
reference in post production here.
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:Don't, don't worry, Eric, you're
not the oldest person on this call.
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:And Brian makes sure to remind me of
that at least on a every other day basis.
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:Brian: And neither, neither my, so that
only leaves one of us Eric you know, we're
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:approaching the the big game, the super
bowl this coming weekend, and, I want to
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:know you know, what, what really excites
you about how brands are interacting
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:with consumers today and and things
that they're doing with their spots.
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:Eric: Yeah, I mean, the Super Bowl is a
really interesting moment for brands
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:because I think a lot of them play by a
completely different set of rules than
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:they usually do, which you can appreciate
because you go, Hey man, this is, this
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:is just fucking fun to play along.
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:But on the other, it's a head
scratcher because you go, there's
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:certain things you're doing.
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:really, really well.
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:Why don't we think this way all the time?
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:Right.
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:And what I mean by that is sort of this
desire to connect with culture, right.
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:To you know, really sort of
go, Hey, you're, you're, you
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:know, how much you've spent.
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:For every millisecond of, of airtime.
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:And, earning their, you know, attention
being remembered and being, being loved
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:hopefully by the, by the end of the day.
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:And you just go, man, why can't, why can't
that be the sort of barometer the time?
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:And I know, you know, different
horses for different courses.
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:Right.
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:And, and meaning like, where are
we in a moment for this brand?
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:Where in the funnel are we sorry for folks
who I don't want to get lost in like.
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:John: Yeah.
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:That's right.
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:Funnels.
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:Funnels kind of obvious.
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:Eric: funnels kind of obvious.
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:Okay, cool.
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:I don't know, you know, what stage
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:Brian: We're, we're getting
close, but that's okay.
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:John: You can email, anyone
can email us if they want to
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:know what the funnel means.
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:Yeah.
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:Eric, you just
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:Eric: we, are we,
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:John: though, if you don't
mind me asking real quick.
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:You mentioned you know, cultural moment.
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:And that is, I think the Superbowl
is, you know, almost the, the
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:ultimate cultural zeitgeist moment.
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:So I guess that forces.
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:A little bit of the different
behavior you just talked about, right?
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:Like this isn't the everyday, this
is a cultural moment to reckon with.
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:And great advertising usually
has cultural relevance.
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:Mm
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:Eric: yes, I think it, I think it
should, I think, I think, well, great
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:advertising, perhaps great brands
should have cultural relevance, right?
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:I think, and I think that's the
bigger way to look at it, right?
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:Because the brand is the total sum of,
Any and every interaction with, the world
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:writ large, from your product itself
to, you know the space that occupies
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:on the shelf to yes, of course, your
advertising and all the gestures and,
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:and, and, and acts and activations.
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:And what I was getting at
before is yeah, there's times
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:to just like sell hard, right?
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:But I think brands often, often
forget about, the other side
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:of it and what they're doing in
the moment of the Super Bowl.
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:And there, there are many brands that
you know, we'll play in this in this
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:moment sort of year in year out, right?
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:John: Mm hmm.
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:Eric: Big, iconic blue chip brands
that have the money to really spend.
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:And then there's a lot of brands who will.
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:take this as an opportunity to just
like introduce themselves to the world
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:John: Yeah.
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:Get on the map.
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:Eric: kind of crazy to
get on the map, right?
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:And it's a, that's a big expensive
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:Brian: Risk.
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:Eric: swing to take.
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:John: The biggest, most expensive swing
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:Eric: You better do it right.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Can you talk about some of that,
those, those, those big differences
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:you just mentioned, there's different
types of brands that, that show up
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:for the Super Bowl and, you know, kind
of just how different they go about
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:preparing for, or how different brands
prepare for getting their ad ready.
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:Eric: Yeah, I don't know.
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:I think we've seen I mean, look, the easy,
the easy way to like when you just think
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:about watching the Super Bowl each year,
there's there's those gigantic brands that
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:are, you know, there to sort of entertain.
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:Maybe they're telling you about a new, a
new product they have, but for the most
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:part, it's just, it's just to be there.
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:It's just to be a part
of this, this moment.
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:John: Mm hmm.
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:Eric: And then there are certainly
brands, I think every year that you just
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:go, who, who are these players, right?
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:New players in category,
new brands entirely.
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:You know, a lot of times that's like,
just, just remember my name, just
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:remember my name at the end of the day.
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:Or is it, you know, just look
me up on, you know, in the
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:socials or visit my website.
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:I think some of these brands have like
real specific metrics they're going after.
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:But I think those, you see, I mean, look,
you see the, you see the big wins every
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:year and you see the big fails every year.
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:And I guess you can kind of say
you see them in both but it hurts.
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:I think the big blue chip brands are
gonna be around no matter what, less
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:than if you are, if you're a brand
who's really stretching to play in
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:this moment and spending these like 10,
$10 million to, to play ball here like
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:that, thing's gotta, that's gotta hit.
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:And I, I think there are some brands
who will take a swing like that and
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:that's like, that could be their
whole marketing budget for the year.
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:You know,
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:Brian: Yeah, the, the impact of that,
of failing is, you know, you can't,
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:you can't, if you've taken that swing,
it's got to, it's got to, it's got to
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:land or you're in a lot of trouble.
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:And it's just so interesting that
the time for you to take that type of
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:risk costs that much money, you know,
like it's like, you know, you're,
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:you're developing something that
you're just dying for attention on.
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:You probably get away from what
your brand is more than anything.
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:And that's the thing you have
to spend the most money on.
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:But,
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:Eric: I think, I think you just nailed it.
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:A huge, a aspect of it, like, I think
there's permission for a brand to deviate
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:from its, from its playbook, right?
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:When I say playbook, I mean here's the
campaign we're running for the year in
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:whatever channel you want to talk about,
but you've got, you've got certain
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:maybe creative vehicles, certain sort
of strategic messages you're leaning on.
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:And I think in this moment you can
go, all right, let's push pause
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:on that and, and change gears.
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:Cause it.
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:This is a very, , very
unique moment in time.
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:You got audience has an incredibly
different relationship to viewing
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:advertising in that moment.
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:Right.
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:It's welcomed as opposed
to something you're.
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:Avoiding
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:John: think that's a huge distinction,
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:Eric: right.
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:And, but I do think you still
need to be true to the, the soul
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:of the brand and the core of the
brand and the DNA of the brand.
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:And I think you will see in this moment,
brands who go too straight, too far.
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:And it doesn't, it either feels
like inauthentic if you know that
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:brand and there's a disconnect.
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:And so therefore you're not actually
building upon the brand the way we
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:were just talking about it being in
the total sum, because you're sort
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:of building equity into another
pile somewhere else that doesn't
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:actually do you know what I mean?
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:It's not like compounded for
everything else you've done.
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:And then I think other times
it's like, it's try hard, right?
335
:And, and, and, you know, everybody's
fucking savvy out there and you
336
:get the eye rolls or, you know.
337
:You see something that's a little cringy
and you're just like, that wasn't them.
338
:You know what I mean?
339
:They're trying to play into something
in culture and the fit isn't there.
340
:The payoff when the brand
finally shows up isn't there.
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:And I think you see that a lot too.
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:And that's like, that's a, that's a real
big watch out for me when working on, on
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:something for Superbowl is to really make
sure, even if you're like, Like I said,
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:changing up the playbook, even if you're
taking a wild swing, it's still gotta
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:like, there's gotta be some truth in it.
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:Both like a cultural truth, but
it's gotta, it's gotta be like
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:a brand, something that fits.
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:You know, and it doesn't feel like
this thing's out of nowhere to where
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:it was a head scratcher at the end
of the, at the end of that spot.
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:John: So I want to, I want
to dig into that, right?
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:Because sure, this kind of
presence and money investment,
352
:you got to be true to your brand.
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:So how do you rationalize that against,
in the backdrop of a, you know, the
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:social, world we live in now where you
don't have control over the way your
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:brand shows up because creators do it
for you with or without permission.
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:And then, you know, Brian and I
have talked about, you know, back
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:in 2006, Doritos invited consumers
to create its Super Bowl ad.
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:So, the ultimate, you
know, giving up control.
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:Sure, they got to pick which one won, but,
you know, they give up a ton of control.
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:To have their brand created,
partially created by consumers.
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:Can you talk a little bit, like,
do you remember when that happened?
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:And,
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:Eric: Yeah.
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:I, man, that moment, I mean,
it was, it was, it was huge.
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:, I'm a big fan of sort of the.
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:Anyway, you can disrupt in that is
where I'll talk at both sides of my
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:mouth for a second, because like on one
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:John: You're allowed.
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:Eric: yeah, I mean, like on one hand,
I love just a classic, just classic
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:storytelling on the super bowl, a
great fucking story, you know shot
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:beautifully, killer music, like
that's going to land too, right?
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:We're just, we're emotional
creatures, you know, something just
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:hits like that works as much as.
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:I think some of these more disruptive
ideas that are playing with the
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:format, right, whether that's Doritos
going sort of more UGC and creating
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:a challenge or it's, you know, tied
years ago, playing with other brands,
377
:you know, messaging and iconography.
378
:Or, or lashing a bouncing QR code that
is just, you know, the, just sort of
379
:just the, the, what the fuck moment,
what, what am I watching right now?
380
:I think I have a, an equal
appreciation for that stuff.
381
:It's interesting because like with
the Dorito thing, because like
382
:that became the brand, like that
is the brand as much as anything.
383
:Right.
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:Like, I couldn't tell you what Doritos
was doing before then, or who they were,
385
:like, I don't remember what that was,
some, probably something about, like,
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:cheese dust and taste, like, I don't,
I don't know, but now all of a sudden
387
:they became, you know, more irreverent,
more of the people, more creative, you
388
:know, just wild, and then that became
a thing that they built on, I think,
389
:not just during the Super Bowl, and
they obviously returned to that year
390
:after year and then had massive success
when they cracked, you know, the USA
391
:ad meter with one of their spots.
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:I mean, that's man, what a dream that is.
393
:You involve your audience, you save a
shitload of money on production and,
394
:and the Super Bowl watching audience
in USA Today, like votes it up.
395
:You just go win, win, win, right?
396
:But I think like, When I say they built on
that, I'm not saying every ad Doritos does
397
:now has to be UGC, but that is a spirit
and a respect for your, for your fans that
398
:they have certainly like carried on with.
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:And I think that's like become
a pillar of who they are.
400
:So, you
401
:Brian: And they're good too.
402
:I mean, like
403
:Eric: in
404
:Brian: yeah, I mean, the, the one
that they shot for this year, the
405
:one that a fan shot was, it's a good
commercial, you know, with aliens
406
:and being, you know, ducting the
trying to deduct a bag of Doritos.
407
:I mean, it was shot really well.
408
:And, you know, 1, like you said,
you're saving the money, but also.
409
:You're getting the interaction from
people that eat their product and,
410
:and, and so you're kind of driving that
community engagement and, you know,
411
:and that's what you, you die for that.
412
:Eric: totally.
413
:And I think also like, you know, pre
then and pre YouTube and, you know,
414
:pre Instagram and Twitter and, you
know, the metrics for success on
415
:the super bowl were very different
to like, you were just vying for a
416
:hundred million plus eyeballs, right.
417
:Or 200, if everyone's got two eyes.
418
:Yeah.
419
:But you know, that all changed
when now it's all, you know, it's
420
:the conversation for two weeks.
421
:Leading up and now, you know, even
a few years ago, it shifted to like,
422
:what the fuck are we doing Monday?
423
:So now it's like, you know what I mean
that that window has just grown and you
424
:have to have a very different playbook I
think it's okay If you're still going all
425
:in on only that moment if you crush it
But like you really got to think about the
426
:totality of that and like that playbook
for Doritos is one way to do that Right,
427
:you're engaging your audience for a really
long time inviting them into this into
428
:this contest, if you will, you know,
429
:John: So, so that, that concept
of, you know, user generated
430
:content, UGC, that you mentioned
for some brands, that's a way in.
431
:For others, they continue to use kind
of the same old, Playbook of they have
432
:an agency of record they spend seven to
nine months prepping for a Super Bowl
433
:commercial and it's a little bit episodic.
434
:They're one and done moving on to
the next back to their playbook.
435
:And let's get to the reason you're here.
436
:You're you're you're looking to do
something very different from that
437
:traditional agency of record model.
438
:Can you talk a little about how
that in general is being disrupted
439
:and kind of your role in that?
440
:Eric: Yeah, I mean, look, my, my whole
career pre X and O was spent at big
441
:agencies that sort of played that, that
AOR role sat at the center of an IAT, the
442
:interagency team, like we really were the
focal point for, for big iconic brands.
443
:And I love that, but there were pain
point, a lot of pain points on our side.
444
:I heard for too long, all the pain
points from my clients as well and yeah,
445
:John: can.
446
:We can share some of those with
447
:Eric: yeah, we can talk, we can definitely
talk about some of that, but like, yeah,
448
:my, my partner, Brett banker, and I
really wanted to set out, not just to
449
:do our own thing, but to do something
different that that addressed all that.
450
:And I think there were a couple sort
of macro trends in the industry.
451
:We wanted to focus on, I mean, 1 was,
there's just a, there was a massive
452
:sort of, , growing super senior,
especially talent pool out there.
453
:You know, the timelines.
454
:And budgets were both shrinking.
455
:That's kind of been a forever thing
, and, you know, something I dealt with
456
:personally was just the, you know,
the more senior I got, the further I
457
:got away from the work and you would
you realize like, man, there's so many
458
:people who are, have been doing this
a long time, like have the experience,
459
:have the instincts, have the talent and
the taste to just like crush a thing.
460
:But they're juggling 15 different accounts
or running a department and, you know,
461
:growing talent and you go, they don't,
they don't have more than 15 minutes
462
:to actually put against a real problem
or a real sort of brand challenge.
463
:John: So if you're hearing that I go
to the idea of like, you're a really
464
:great writer and you get more and more
exposure, more and more experience.
465
:And as you get good.
466
:They give you people to manage
and more clients to take
467
:on, and you get distracted.
468
:Is that a fair, like,
469
:Eric: Yeah, I think, yeah.
470
:Yeah.
471
:I think it's a little, yeah, I, it's,
it's a weird I mean, look, I, I guess
472
:that applies to many career paths, right?
473
:You get more senior and you, you go into
a management role, but a lot of times
474
:that management role is still doing
the thing that you were doing before.
475
:Whereas, like in creative
advertising, like you, it's a
476
:very, very different skillset.
477
:And I think some people are like.
478
:made for it.
479
:Whether that's managing clients, managing
teams of people, managing careers,
480
:mentoring, like those are all really,
really different skill sets than like
481
:coming up with a great fucking idea or
crafting the hell out of something, right?
482
:They're really, really different.
483
:And I think we put
people on the same path.
484
:The same ladder and you get to a point.
485
:I was guilty of it too.
486
:I had like exceptional people
who were It's not even like were
487
:they good at managing or not?
488
:Like they were just exceptional at a
certain thing whether that's you know We
489
:were talking about culture of like just
coming up with ideas that would resonate
490
:in culture They just had like a sixth
sense for it right versus somebody else
491
:who is the best comedy writer you've
ever met And yet you go, well, you kind
492
:of need to be more well rounded if you're
going to become a creative director.
493
:And if you're going to become an executive
creative director, and if you ever want
494
:to be CCO, like, this is this is the path.
495
:So I don't know a, I think we got
to lean into people's strengths
496
:a whole lot more and specialty.
497
:But, yes, to answer your question, like.
498
:As a, as a super senior, leader
in an agency, yeah, you move
499
:away from doing that thing.
500
:And you're tasked with more.
501
:And, you know, when you're running a
department of a hundred folks or trying
502
:to win new business and thinking about the
bottom line, like you just don't have as
503
:much time to solve your clients problems.
504
:So our bet at X and O was.
505
:Let's go super senior talent only and,
you know, so we have no hierarchy.
506
:We have no junior staff,
no middle level staff.
507
:Let's give people 100 percent focus
when they're working on a thing.
508
:So rather than juggle these five
things at once, it's like, Nope, just
509
:be 100 percent focus on this project.
510
:For really short window, but
lean on your instinct and taste
511
:to move, move at light speed.
512
:And we only work on a project basis.
513
:So we're out of the whole, you
know, you brought it up, John about,
514
:like, retainers and you're sort
of in the, in the loop loop there.
515
:And the goal is to really
just kind of keep the thing.
516
:Going a little bit, you know we're,
we're more of like a, a SWAT team.
517
:If you will, to come in, you know,
move it, break next speed, solve
518
:the problem, knock it out of the
park and, and, and, and move on.
519
:So.
520
:John: Got it.
521
:Eric: Yeah, that's our
model in a nutshell.
522
:It's interesting when you start talking
about something like Superbowl because
523
:of a lot of the factors we were, we
were already talking about, right?
524
:A lot of times it's, there's so much
money involved and some of these brands
525
:are, most of these brands are big brands.
526
:They most likely already have
An agency of record, right?
527
:So yeah, it feels, it feels like it
makes most sense to give that, that
528
:task then to your, to your existing AOR.
529
:But we're seeing that shift too.
530
:We're seeing all brands kind of
move away from having a single
531
:forever partner, if you will, in
532
:Brian: I mean, like, the,
the world's changed, man.
533
:Like, the, it, I was actually got
caught up in Mad Men repeats last night.
534
:But like, it was a different world.
535
:, Companies, brands relied on an agency
to, you know, do everything for them
536
:of how they showed up in the world.
537
:And now that isn't just like a,
an ad in a newspaper or magazine.
538
:I love your model because I feel
like it, it's, it needs to be.
539
:100 percent focus on this thing.
540
:And then there's a lot
of these other things.
541
:And like, if you just have one partner to
do that you're probably going to get stuck
542
:in the situation you're talking about.
543
:And you know, the, the push and
pull between the brand and the
544
:agency, I mean, it's, it's just
a completely different world.
545
:And the super bowl is a great example
of just like needing so many things now.
546
:It's not just coming
up with that one idea.
547
:It's like the execution
of a thousand things.
548
:Eric: yeah.
549
:Oh man, I remember there was an episode
of Mad Men, and he literally had a
550
:board up on an easel, and he was covered
in like a black cloth, and he just
551
:unveiled it, and like, that, that was it.
552
:That was the it.
553
:And I think I even said, Don,
that's why we pay you the big bucks.
554
:And I'm like, man, fuck off.
555
:I wish, I wish it was that easy now.
556
:It's crazy to your point.
557
:Yeah, even like we were saying, very,
very seldomly now is a Super Bowl ad, the,
558
:the only part of that campaign, like, you
559
:John: No, the tease and the
activations around it are
560
:Eric: in one channel,
like that, that's not it.
561
:I mean, you look at, you know, you know,
even now there's a bunch of campaigns,
562
:you know, the Monday's campaign, like
there's, there's so many parts to that.
563
:And also to think like, when, when,
you know, if that's the case, I
564
:would hope you're leaning on them.
565
:Yeah.
566
:Folks whose expertise it is to,
to, you know, execute that idea
567
:and reinterpret that idea in,
in different channels, right?
568
:Yeah, so and so's gonna write that, that
film, so and so's gonna go execute that
569
:film, but what's happening in, in social,
how are we, you know, or, or other,
570
:you know, any, any channels that you,
that you've turned on there, that you
571
:really want a team of, of specialists.
572
:Going at this.
573
:And that's the way we think about
sort of every project at X&O.
574
:Like we build the team
for the ask every time.
575
:We're always building it
up from ground zero though.
576
:So there is no, this is your dedicated
full time team for this brand.
577
:Because I didn't think context
just changes on a dime.
578
:You know, how are you able to then
pivot just think really sort of
579
:brilliantly in different channels.
580
:Brian: Totally.
581
:And like, when you're talking to
executives at brands, like how has
582
:what they're looking for changed?
583
:Are they asking for different
things in different ways?
584
:Eric: Yeah.
585
:I mean, look, look, the CMO, I mean,
just going back to Don Draper time,
586
:like, or even just five years, four
587
:Brian: heard.
588
:Yeah.
589
:Eric: five years ago, like the
CMO job now is so much more
590
:complicated, so much more layered.
591
:A lot of times the CMO job has now
become the chief brand officer.
592
:And again, when you think of what
represents a brand, like it's everything.
593
:So to go, I'm going to hire one
team that can do everything for
594
:me seems almost foolish, you know?
595
:It's not, it's not about like.
596
:Loyalty and like to an agency and
I think there is a lot of that
597
:and hurt feelings when this idea
wasn't conceived here or, you know,
598
:Brian: Well, the episode I watched
last night of Mad Men, they
599
:lost the lucky strike account
600
:Eric: yeah, yeah,
601
:Brian: And they were, they were crushed
and it was like, you know, them trying
602
:to lucky strike was trying to consolidate
all their all their marketing, which I
603
:don't even know what else there would
have been like maybe the design of the
604
:packet, that package, but yeah, like
the, the hurt feelings, it's really
605
:about like, how can you create the
best set of teams that you can to, to
606
:accomplish all the projects you need to do
607
:Eric: yeah.
608
:And I think, look, we have clients
of all different sizes, which, which
609
:again is something very different
than what, you know, I was used to in
610
:my past lives because we were always
looking to like, scale up bigger and
611
:bigger clients with X and O because
we're project based and we have a.
612
:Yeah.
613
:Yeah.
614
:Fixed fee model.
615
:We work with clients
of all different sizes.
616
:So we have fortune 100 clients and
we have startups, which is really
617
:fun for us just in terms of the, you
know, to stretch our brains and the
618
:range of, of, of, of problems there.
619
:But they all have a different
mix on their end, right?
620
:Like.
621
:Whether that's, you know, a Coca
Cola who's got, you know, 50
622
:plus rostered agencies, right?
623
:Or it's a startup who's got nothing.
624
:Or it's someone who's really trying
to beef up their in house team and
625
:just wants to supplement that with
some really senior thinking or like
626
:big agency thinking without being able
to afford a big agency on retainer.
627
:John: You talked a minute ago about
bringing in like the specialists,
628
:the people who are really good
for the thing versus having a
629
:standby team that did everything.
630
:So, so that's kind of at
the core of your model.
631
:Is it sometimes hard to.
632
:Have the discipline yourself to not fall
into the trap of, well, these people, this
633
:guy, this, this person is, this man or
woman is really good on the last project.
634
:Let's bring him in for this one.
635
:Cause you're so good.
636
:Even though it might not be perfect.
637
:Do you find yourself ever backsliding
into kind of that, you know, bringing
638
:the round peg into the square hole?
639
:Eric: not, no, not really.
640
:I mean, we're pretty,
641
:Brian: I love that
642
:Eric: be only because like, we've,
we've, we've, this wasn't like
643
:something we'd tried on, you know, in
the midst of our, our business model.
644
:Like this,
645
:John: you, you didn't come to this.
646
:You didn't come to this lightly.
647
:Eric: Yeah.
648
:Like, this is what I think we wind up
in a, in a position sometimes where
649
:you can look back and reflect and go,
oh man, they weren't perfect for that.
650
:We almost, we try to like catalog our
people, honestly, which is weird too,
651
:because they're so like exceptional.
652
:I mean, even on the creative
side of things, right?
653
:I think, or especially on the creative
side of things, because you folks have
654
:been doing this a long time like me.
655
:I mean, I fielded any kind of brief,
you know, I would not consider
656
:myself an expert in any, like I
took on tons of, I don't know,
657
:you know, cause related briefs.
658
:I'm not an expert in cause marketing.
659
:We have somebody who's written
four books on cause marketing.
660
:So like, I'm going to tap that person.
661
:But when that comes, I go, I know
I'm always looking for specialty.
662
:And there's a lot of creators who are
super well rounded and would probably
663
:do quite well on any brief, but we
ask them from day one, we're like.
664
:What truly do you believe
your super power is?
665
:Like, where do you really rate
yourself as like the best of the best?
666
:And that's a hard thing to answer, right?
667
:We all, we all suffer
from imposter syndrome.
668
:So to really answer that and go,
where am I the best of the best?
669
:Like, all right, I'm not going to say
everything because then you're crazy.
670
:Like you're just, you're
crazy to say that.
671
:And then there's also like a little
bit too of, and what do you love?
672
:Right where do you think you're
exceptional because sometimes you might
673
:be exceptional because you've done it
a 1M times, but you're kind of over it.
674
:Right?
675
:And I don't want to do that 1 again.
676
:So that other bit of, like,
what just lights you up?
677
:Because when you get a challenge,
that's sort of tailor made for you.
678
:You just invest way more.
679
:And I don't mean hours.
680
:I mean, like just brain
power and energy and focus.
681
:So we're always looking for that.
682
:So yeah, like we've gotten it wrong,
but I don't think we're really never
683
:playing a game of availability.
684
:It's not, well, shit, we don't have
anybody that's suitable for this.
685
:So we'll just put so and so on it.
686
:And it's
687
:John: You must have a pretty
broad roster of talent then at
688
:Eric: we're about, we're
about 130 people right
689
:John: Okay.
690
:So
691
:Eric: to be incredibly discerning.
692
:Yeah.
693
:And look, it doesn't mean everybody's
694
:John: And none of those are,
those aren't employees, right?
695
:Those are just people
696
:Eric: No employees.
697
:We're all contractor base.
698
:Yeah.
699
:And it doesn't mean that everybody is
an old person like me who Brian, thank
700
:you was on the 40 under 40 list in 1910.
701
:But, you know, because some of them,
depending on what we're talking about,
702
:right, if we're talking about, you know.
703
:AI, like, yeah, that person might not have
been doing it for 20 years, obviously.
704
:This could be
705
:John: Yeah.
706
:Very few
707
:Eric: born into that
and knows it inside out.
708
:So these are just people who, like,
know their shit inside out and
709
:really can speak instinctively on it.
710
:But it's interesting, even when he's
talking about Super Bowl, and, and
711
:I'll just, I'll be fully transparent.
712
:It's like, , we've got No
horses in the race this year.
713
:But man, we've got a bunch of folks in the
network who have like created very famous,
714
:very successful Super Bowl campaign.
715
:So I just think about how a lot
of the Super Bowl work gets made.
716
:And everyone wants a shot at it.
717
:I get it.
718
:And they're going to approach it with like
tenacity and hunger on some of the, from
719
:some of these agencies, but I wouldn't
consider a lot of these spots to have
720
:been sort of strategized and created
and crafted by experts necessarily.
721
:Right?
722
:I don't always think that's the case.
723
:Oh,
724
:Brian: Yeah.
725
:I think, you know, something
you said, you know, figure out
726
:the thing that you're best at.
727
:I mean, that to
728
:John: care about.
729
:Brian: credible advice for anybody.
730
:And now trying to figure out where
their places and what are you great at?
731
:And that's such a hard question
to answer because, you know,
732
:there's a lot of, you know, the
job market today is kind of crazy.
733
:So you want to be able to show that you
can do everything, but like, you need
734
:to be able to be really specific about.
735
:You know where your strengths are
, but like, where are you great at?
736
:And, and then also, you know
what you said about, you know,
737
:do something that you love.
738
:I mean that's so important.
739
:I mean, those two things to me are
like, those would be the best two things
740
:you could tell somebody, you know,
741
:John: And that intersection is
742
:Eric: think that's an exercise
like anybody listening.
743
:It's it is hard to your point.
744
:It's really hard, but to sit and take
a few minutes to answer that, even
745
:if you don't share it with anybody.
746
:I mean, just like file that file that
away inside and and no, and maybe
747
:some of those things are not great.
748
:You want to be, but that's helpful too.
749
:But I really do think.
750
:Being honest, I mean, we, not only the
experts in our network, we talk to, you
751
:know, production partners that same way.
752
:It's like everybody who tells you I
can do everything, I'm like, yeah,
753
:what are you fucking fantastic at?
754
:What, what do you wish you were,
you're really good, but you
755
:wish you were a little better?
756
:And what are you like,
don't call me for that.
757
:It's not my thing.
758
:And I, like, I respect an honest
answer there, more, much more than,
759
:nah, we're, we can, we can do it all.
760
:And I think when you hear that,
I go, I don't believe you.
761
:I just don't believe you.
762
:And, and I think it actually hurts you.
763
:So even when you talk about trying to
get a gig and interviewing, I don't think
764
:that plays that well because I think the
person on the other end listening who
765
:asked that question probably knows it
about themselves too, that there's no
766
:way they could be good at everything.
767
:so I think, I think it, I think
it behooves you to answer that
768
:one, honestly, but it's hard.
769
:It's really hard.
770
:Brian: there really are.
771
:John: Was there a, was there an
oh crap moment for you when you
772
:decided that you needed to break
away from the traditional agency
773
:business and do this very new model?
774
:Like you talked about, I've, I've,
it sounds like there's been, there
775
:was at least a slow burn and kind of
seeing some of the inefficiencies and
776
:the opportunities on the other side.
777
:But was there like a moment where like,
I've, where you made that decision?
778
:Where you said, I'm, I'm doing this.
779
:Eric: I think sort of not, not, oh crap,
more of like a light bulb moment for me.
780
:After, leaving my full time
job, I spent a couple of years
781
:like just consulting, right.
782
:And I say consulting different than
sort of freelancing as a writer, which
783
:I did a little bit as well, but I did
a bunch of like direct to brand work.
784
:And then I also worked
for agencies in more of.
785
:An interim and fractional chief
creative officer capacity.
786
:Like whether that was like, Hey, help
us work on our new business pitch,
787
:our creds, like sharpen that, or
help us wrap the ship on this wobbly
788
:client or help us win new business.
789
:And there was a moment where I
was leading a big global pitch.
790
:And I just realized I'm like, I'm doing
this as somebody who does not represent
791
:this company full time, this agency
full time, and everybody knows that.
792
:Like it wasn't back in the day.
793
:I would have been asked
when I say back in the day.
794
:I'm talking.
795
:John: the, the client
probably didn't know that.
796
:Eric: No, they did.
797
:That's what I mean.
798
:I would say five years prior.
799
:It would have been like
they'd have no idea.
800
:But now with linked in and you just
go on and my name is showing up in the
801
:little box like it is now on the zoom.
802
:They're like, Oh, who is this guy?
803
:Punch me into linked in.
804
:They go.
805
:Oh, it don't work for them.
806
:John: He's a freelancer.
807
:Eric: Right.
808
:And, and so, like I said, back in the
day, it would have been like, Hey, just
809
:tell them we're sort of negotiating.
810
:We're still, we're, we're in talks.
811
:And there wasn't any of that because I
think something, something just changed,
812
:which is I don't like this brand a hundred
percent needed full service AOR global,
813
:like it's a big, big brand looking for
a big, big holding company type agency.
814
:Right.
815
:So like they needed that.
816
:It wasn't like.
817
:Someone like me could go away and
steal quote unquote steal the business.
818
:That's not gonna happen, but there's a
moment where you just go Oh, man, they
819
:didn't give a shit that I that I wasn't
there Global ECD like they didn't care.
820
:They were just like hopefully Hopefully
this guy's just sitting at the table
821
:and is gonna help make this better
and that's all I care about right
822
:now Can you help me solve my problem?
823
:Can you help make this great?
824
:For the agency, can you help us win this?
825
:For the client, can
you help us solve this?
826
:And I just walked away
going, man, shit's changed.
827
:It's changed.
828
:No one cares anymore about the pageantry
of it and the logistics of it . They're
829
:like, I need, I need, we always, we say,
I mean, I think it's on our website.
830
:Like a lot of our clients
say like, I need big ideas.
831
:I need them fast and I don't
care where they come from.
832
:And like that, that's what
everyone's thinking, you know?
833
:So we
834
:John: I do think they're thinking that
I think you're giving, I think you're
835
:giving some clients a little more credit
than, than do in terms of knowing whether
836
:you're a part of the team or not, I
think a lot of times on a big agency of.
837
:Record relationship, the client
just assumes if you're in here
838
:pitching a big idea that you
are actually part of that agency
839
:But to your point, I think the
important distinction is, is this
840
:person able to help me solve my problem?
841
:That's all.
842
:Brian: Well, I'll tell you
10 years ago, the thing that
843
:would have scared me would be.
844
:And I'll use a different example.
845
:I had somebody come and renovate my house,
and there was like a lead company, and
846
:they farmed out all the work individually,
like they brought in electricians, they
847
:brought in a contractor, they brought
in somebody to do the flooring, and the
848
:project kept falling apart because none
of the people worked directly for them.
849
:So I would say, like, who's kind of
holding everything together as they're
850
:more, I guess, expertise on the brand
side now where they're kind of making
851
:sure they're playing a bigger role and
making sure they have the 360 degree
852
:view in it, where in the past, you
know, the agency, the agency record
853
:would do all that themselves, like
who's kind of holding the thing together
854
:in a way that keeps that continuity.
855
:Eric: I mean, if it's my company,
like better fucking bet it's us
856
:who are like keeping it together.
857
:Do you know what I mean?
858
:Like if I'm the CEO, I'm going, yeah,
you, you, you brand team better be.
859
:Brian: Great.
860
:Eric: You know, just, just shepherding
this thing overall and have a vision,
861
:but yes, lean on expertise to help
you craft hone, execute that vision.
862
:But to just like blindly hand
that over and go like, ah, I
863
:don't really know what's going on.
864
:I'm going to trust that
these guys are running it.
865
:It's like, that's just seems nuts to me.
866
:John: Yeah, but with so much
pressure around growth, I think
867
:a lot of times that sentiment is
does, is not first and foremost.
868
:It's not, there's not a CEO going, let's
make sure we are true to this brand.
869
:It's like, how do we get
the quarterly number done?
870
:Don't care.
871
:Don't care what the brand
looks like or how it shows up.
872
:Care about, care about growth.
873
:That,
874
:Eric: well, I mean, look, you get into
that's a big, big fundamental debate.
875
:I don't even know how it's a debate,
but like, you know, this idea that brand
876
:drives business, like, which I firmly
believe in not solely, but . Like I
877
:said, we are irrational creatures, man.
878
:Like there's a, there's an obvious
value exchange that, and, and, you know,
879
:I even hate using the word consumers
because it's like, I'm talking about
880
:people who are not me, me, us, all of us.
881
:Yeah, like we're we're savvy like I
want to know what the value exchange is.
882
:What am I getting for my hard earned?
883
:Money, whether we're talking services
goods, whatever But yeah, like
884
:I want to believe in something.
885
:I want to know what you stand for I
want to understand who you even if
886
:it's not even some big profound thing.
887
:It's just like it's just the same way we
like Make friends or hire a contractor,
888
:like who the hell are you, man, like what,
you know, what am I, who am I, who am
889
:I, you know, bringing into my household
or wearing on my person or like, I just,
890
:or putting in my mouth, like, you know,
like, I just need to know who you are
891
:and that, that's what I mean by brand.
892
:And I do think.
893
:When you, when you create some
sort of affinity for that,
894
:like you're willing to go back.
895
:So it does drive transaction.
896
:Like course it does look at some of
the biggest brands on the planet.
897
:John: Mm hmm.
898
:Eric: there.
899
:It's not just, it's not just the,
it's not just at the register.
900
:So yeah.
901
:But anyway, I digress.
902
:Brian: So.
903
:Eric, you know, with the Amazon
Prime Black Friday football
904
:game and it's, you know, more
direct connection to transaction.
905
:Do you see that type of strategy
being used more in the Super Bowl?
906
:Eric: Yeah.
907
:I mean, everyone's got, you got
another, you got eyes glued on the,
908
:on the big one on the big screen.
909
:You got the other one in your hand that
it's not even in your pocket anymore.
910
:I mean, it's never in your pocket.
911
:It's literally right in your lap now.
912
:So why not take advantage of that?
913
:There's some other conversation
or continuation of the
914
:conversation happening.
915
:Right.
916
:It gets really interesting when it starts
to become layered and as long as it's
917
:not too much, too much work also, you
know, and you look at what was slightly
918
:different, but what Verizon did last year
with, with, with Beyonce and dropping
919
:the, the, you know, work for her, she
was dropping news about an album while
920
:it was simultaneously touting The power
of their network, like, I mean, that's
921
:the stuff I like I get excited about
because you're like, yeah, why not?
922
:It's so many things are going on at once.
923
:And I think, like I said, we're
all savvy to the value exchange.
924
:So why not?
925
:You got something to sell me, sell me,
but sell me in a way that's entertaining,
926
:especially on the Super Bowl.
927
:Like.
928
:Cause like,
929
:John: Yeah.
930
:Eric: you know, but then you've got
me, you've got a captive audience.
931
:You've got me.
932
:What's next?
933
:. So then I ignore the subsequent
commercial and I don't even
934
:know what that next one is.
935
:That's by the way, that's the hardest
thing is following a great commercial when
936
:everyone's looking away from the screen,
talking to their friends on the couch or
937
:looking you know, or, or, or, you know,
tweeting about how funny it was, you know?
938
:John: by the way, I'm
constantly entertained.
939
:Every year there's at least one or
two advertisers who just didn't get
940
:the memo that they're supposed to be
entertaining in this forum, in this forum.
941
:It's so, it's so sad to see the money
just swirling down the toilet because
942
:those, when they, there are those ones
when they come up, people are just like,
943
:okay, now I can run to the bathroom.
944
:Eric: Yeah.
945
:John: Okay.
946
:Now I
947
:Eric: just lit 10 million on fire.
948
:John: Yeah.
949
:And every year.
950
:Brian: though, timing's everything though.
951
:I mean, they're, they're, you know,
everybody's been at a party where
952
:it just all magically gets quiet
where a certain commercial comes on.
953
:And then other times it's like
a great play just happened and
954
:everybody's talking about the play
and they missed the commercial.
955
:Like timing is everything.
956
:I mean, there's just
so many variables here.
957
:Eric: I think that's true,
but I also think there are
958
:a ton of bad decisions made.
959
:I mean, it's, it's wild to me, right?
960
:Everyone's vying for the top 10.
961
:I get that it is hard to crack that, but
I don't think it's that hard to crack.
962
:Let's say I'll be arbitrary top 25,
like into fall in the bottom 25.
963
:What are their 65, 70 commercials
to be in the bottom 25 is like.
964
:You really, really screwed something
up like tonally strategically
965
:Brian: Yeah.
966
:You're not putting that as the
intro to your podcast appearance.
967
:John: And it's interesting, ironically,
there are probably people involved in
968
:some of those bottom 25, bottom 10, that
are really good crafts people, right?
969
:There probably were experts, but
something just didn't connect.
970
:Eric: Yeah.
971
:Brian: I mean, there are probably too
many, too many people got involved
972
:and it just probably fell apart.
973
:John: Yeah.
974
:Brian: You know, I guess Eric, , what kind
of situations have you been in where you
975
:do a ton of planning and it kind of blows
up or, you know, right at the end, another
976
:idea comes out or like, you know, there's
so many different ways that it can go.
977
:Eric: Yeah.
978
:Oh man, I've been, I've
been in a bunch of those.
979
:It's funny.
980
:I think, you know,
981
:I've worked on, I think this applies
to sort of all advertising, especially
982
:when you're making like a big film,
but especially so for Superbowl,
983
:it's nuts because there's so, so much
attention and money poured into it.
984
:But yeah, I've been involved in Super
Bowl commercials where we got the brief
985
:eight months before, you know developed
in the next couple, tested for months,
986
:you know, where you're drawing up, drawing
up animatics, you're testing those.
987
:I've gone so far as to certain brands
have enough money where they will make.
988
:Like finished multiple Super Bowl
commercials and then test those.
989
:I, you know, I'm not a big fan of
testing in general, especially.
990
:The creative testing strategy,
maybe testing the creative, not at
991
:all, but so I've been on that end.
992
:I have definitely been on a
couple of projects where it
993
:was like a last minute thing.
994
:Screw it.
995
:We're going in, you know what
can we cook up in 2 months?
996
:I've been on a couple of projects
where you really did get out
997
:in front of it, but then it.
998
:It died kind of real, real close to a
moment in time where you probably have
999
:to pull the plug entirely, but we, we
rebooted and the reason things, I mean,
:
00:50:11,695 --> 00:50:15,115
one thing, cause of legal, the NFL,
I remember pushed against something
:
00:50:15,115 --> 00:50:17,675
we made and we're like, you can't,
you can't air that camera on that.
:
00:50:18,025 --> 00:50:20,965
So we, we pivoted one
time it was due to talent.
:
00:50:22,005 --> 00:50:22,525
We pivoted.
:
00:50:23,220 --> 00:50:31,270
But yeah, I mean it's funny because you
can, you can pull it off in, in six weeks.
:
00:50:31,795 --> 00:50:32,215
Brian: Yeah.
:
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:33,000
Eric: You know what I mean?
:
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,470
And I think you look at it and you
go, yeah, you should be able to.
:
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:41,800
I don't think any 32nd piece of film
should take seven fucking months.
:
00:50:41,830 --> 00:50:44,730
I think that's personally,
I think that's crazy.
:
00:50:44,820 --> 00:50:47,420
John: Okay, so you're, you're a
value prop of doing stuff really
:
00:50:47,625 --> 00:50:49,885
Eric: I think that's, I mean,
look at the business I've started.
:
00:50:49,885 --> 00:50:52,405
We'll tell you everything,
but I think that's nuts, man.
:
00:50:52,505 --> 00:50:53,605
Who's got that kind of time.
:
00:50:53,605 --> 00:50:54,685
Who's got that kind of money.
:
00:50:54,775 --> 00:50:56,155
Like, I just think that's nuts.
:
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,610
John: All right, so, so your value
prop of speed plus matching true
:
00:51:00,610 --> 00:51:04,390
experts to the actual business
problem you're trying to solve plus
:
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:05,150
probably a bunch of other things.
:
00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:08,040
I'm sure you have plenty of
objections in this new model
:
00:51:08,070 --> 00:51:09,480
that you've, you've pioneered.
:
00:51:10,540 --> 00:51:11,320
What's the big one?
:
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:11,910
What's the big one?
:
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:15,460
Client's like, I just can't pull the
trigger and go with you with X and O
:
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,480
because I've got an agency of record.
:
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,250
I'm paying 40 million a year or
two and it's too uncomfortable
:
00:51:20,250 --> 00:51:21,210
for me to make that switch.
:
00:51:21,210 --> 00:51:22,080
What's the big objection?
:
00:51:23,585 --> 00:51:26,175
Eric: Listen, I, I, it's about fit, right?
:
00:51:26,375 --> 00:51:31,135
It's about we are very, very clear
in terms of what our proposition is.
:
00:51:31,765 --> 00:51:37,155
And we, that, that's for us and
it's for our clients, right?
:
00:51:37,155 --> 00:51:41,885
Meaning we're not going to take the wrong
job when we know it's a poor fit for us.
:
00:51:41,925 --> 00:51:43,885
Like we're not a full service.
:
00:51:43,885 --> 00:51:48,345
Full time, round the clock,
round the year agency, right?
:
00:51:48,525 --> 00:51:53,415
And I know that some businesses
require that, some brands require that.
:
00:51:53,935 --> 00:51:57,415
Now, so I'd say that's the
biggest objection, but it's
:
00:51:57,415 --> 00:52:00,225
not really an objection if you
can, if you're really clear up
:
00:52:00,515 --> 00:52:02,195
John: I was gonna say, they
probably know that coming into the
:
00:52:02,305 --> 00:52:03,375
Eric: Yeah, yeah,
:
00:52:03,425 --> 00:52:04,185
John: are not that.
:
00:52:04,395 --> 00:52:08,045
Eric: pushed, I think we've been
pushed sometimes when, you know, we've
:
00:52:08,045 --> 00:52:11,325
done like a cred session and, you
know, there's chemistry and there's,
:
00:52:11,635 --> 00:52:15,145
There's you know, a marketer or brand
leader who goes, man, I really like
:
00:52:15,145 --> 00:52:20,155
this model, but can you guys just, can
you, can you do this for us instead?
:
00:52:20,355 --> 00:52:21,095
It's hard.
:
00:52:21,235 --> 00:52:24,215
It's hard to turn that down,
especially if you like them.
:
00:52:24,795 --> 00:52:25,105
Sure.
:
00:52:25,105 --> 00:52:29,365
If the money's good, if the brief's
exciting, if the challenges is, is,
:
00:52:29,415 --> 00:52:32,265
is, you know, inspired and ambitious.
:
00:52:32,725 --> 00:52:36,115
Well, like you got to say no, if
it's not, if it's not your model.
:
00:52:36,676 --> 00:52:39,676
Again, it's hard to call it
an objection, but I guess it
:
00:52:39,676 --> 00:52:41,356
is as yes, that's a good, but
:
00:52:41,631 --> 00:52:42,911
John: it's an obstacle, maybe,
:
00:52:43,026 --> 00:52:43,466
Eric: an obstacle.
:
00:52:43,516 --> 00:52:45,136
It's a good, it's a good reason.
:
00:52:45,136 --> 00:52:46,656
I think for somebody to turn us down
:
00:52:47,101 --> 00:52:50,551
John: so you're not going to end up,
you know, you're not going to end up you
:
00:52:50,551 --> 00:52:53,551
know, three months into the relationship
and suddenly you're doing a hundred
:
00:52:53,561 --> 00:52:56,391
different local offer tags on car spots.
:
00:52:56,391 --> 00:52:57,491
That's not going to be you guys.
:
00:52:57,611 --> 00:52:57,931
Okay.
:
00:52:58,011 --> 00:52:58,431
Got it.
:
00:52:58,541 --> 00:52:59,041
Got it.
:
00:52:59,041 --> 00:52:59,391
All
:
00:53:00,181 --> 00:53:00,431
Eric: Yeah.
:
00:53:00,951 --> 00:53:01,691
That's not us.
:
00:53:01,751 --> 00:53:02,161
Yeah.
:
00:53:02,471 --> 00:53:04,191
John: right, Brian, what
else do we have for Eric?
:
00:53:04,191 --> 00:53:07,751
I feel like we've kind of monopolized
this time for a while now.
:
00:53:10,056 --> 00:53:11,326
Brian: I mean, I think that covers it.
:
00:53:11,426 --> 00:53:16,126
I, I think that you know, John knows
that I have very similar beliefs to like,
:
00:53:16,126 --> 00:53:17,816
why would we spend this much time on it?
:
00:53:17,816 --> 00:53:21,546
I feel like the more time you spend
on something to that degree, I
:
00:53:21,676 --> 00:53:24,901
feel like it just gets compromised
The vision for what you're really
:
00:53:24,901 --> 00:53:26,811
trying to do goes away really fast.
:
00:53:26,841 --> 00:53:27,391
And
:
00:53:27,451 --> 00:53:28,951
John: When something gets
overworked, you mean?
:
00:53:29,631 --> 00:53:30,541
Brian: yeah, yeah.
:
00:53:30,541 --> 00:53:35,401
I mean, it's not like, you know, the
old poets in the::
00:53:35,731 --> 00:53:39,121
be extremely stream of conscious and
then they would never touch it again.
:
00:53:39,121 --> 00:53:42,541
Now that's a little extreme, but
like, I do feel like there needs to
:
00:53:42,541 --> 00:53:47,441
be some of that, like that first idea,
like run with it and like, If you're
:
00:53:47,441 --> 00:53:49,831
trying to put something in front of
people, like they want to react to
:
00:53:49,831 --> 00:53:53,211
something that's very organic and
something that has some feeling to it
:
00:53:53,271 --> 00:53:57,161
and the more people you put on that
feeling, the more you take that away.
:
00:53:57,201 --> 00:53:57,571
So,
:
00:53:58,051 --> 00:53:58,651
Eric: Well said.
:
00:53:58,951 --> 00:53:59,381
Yeah.
:
00:53:59,941 --> 00:54:04,181
It's funny because we're in
a business that is, as we all
:
00:54:04,181 --> 00:54:06,381
know, very subjective, right?
:
00:54:07,871 --> 00:54:10,711
. But I think sometimes you just
gotta trust, to your point, Brian,
:
00:54:10,711 --> 00:54:15,051
like, trust your instinct and your
experience to go, no, that's gonna work.
:
00:54:15,101 --> 00:54:19,951
Now, let's spend some time together
making it fucking great and
:
00:54:19,951 --> 00:54:22,281
ensuring, and ensuring it works.
:
00:54:22,831 --> 00:54:27,391
As opposed to, I don't know, it's
hard, you get, you get a group together
:
00:54:27,751 --> 00:54:31,931
and you all want to poke holes, you
shoot something down and, you know, I
:
00:54:31,931 --> 00:54:36,591
think harder is to have like a build
up session instead of that, right?
:
00:54:36,591 --> 00:54:39,801
Where you're really building this
thing up together and making it leak
:
00:54:39,841 --> 00:54:43,701
proof, if you will, but yeah, yeah,
:
00:54:45,266 --> 00:54:47,026
John: Well, Eric, thank
you so much for your time.
:
00:54:47,026 --> 00:54:50,336
This has been really interesting
to hear about a very different
:
00:54:50,336 --> 00:54:55,056
perspective on the way brands go about
showing up on that on that big stage.
:
00:54:56,376 --> 00:54:58,586
So really, we really appreciate it.
:
00:54:59,491 --> 00:55:01,701
Eric: hopefully next year
we'll have some yeah.
:
00:55:03,431 --> 00:55:04,781
Some films in the race.
:
00:55:05,421 --> 00:55:08,591
John: Well, I can virtually guarantee
you that you're more likely to
:
00:55:08,601 --> 00:55:12,191
have some spots in the Super
Bowl than your hometown Giants.
:
00:55:12,231 --> 00:55:12,581
So.
:
00:55:12,926 --> 00:55:13,506
How about that?
:
00:55:14,006 --> 00:55:18,118
Eric: That's a way, way to make your,
maybe, you know, way to make your
:
00:55:18,118 --> 00:55:20,798
guests feel Tara, even first he's
:
00:55:20,863 --> 00:55:22,573
Brian: that and a 40 under 40.
:
00:55:22,768 --> 00:55:25,458
John: right, we like to open
and close on a low note.
:
00:55:26,278 --> 00:55:29,208
Eric: It is gonna be very hard
for me to watch Saquon, do
:
00:55:29,718 --> 00:55:30,858
his thing in the Super Bowl.
:
00:55:30,858 --> 00:55:32,543
I wish him well, but I do hope the birds.
:
00:55:33,178 --> 00:55:37,158
Get throttled.
:
00:55:37,363 --> 00:55:37,563
Brian: that.
:
00:55:37,793 --> 00:55:38,933
I re I do respect that.
:
00:55:38,988 --> 00:55:41,088
Eric: I'm all in on a
chief's repeat three feet.
:
00:55:41,088 --> 00:55:41,288
Let's
:
00:55:41,378 --> 00:55:43,368
John: will, we'll definitely
edit this crap out.
:
00:55:45,908 --> 00:55:47,028
Eric, thank you so much.
:
00:55:47,028 --> 00:55:47,478
It's great
:
00:55:47,608 --> 00:55:48,458
Eric: fun to hang with y'all.
:
00:55:48,538 --> 00:55:48,998
All right.
:
00:55:49,228 --> 00:55:49,618
See ya.
:
00:55:50,605 --> 00:55:51,335
John: All right, Brian.
:
00:55:51,615 --> 00:55:55,565
Fun to hear about an entirely
different agency model that can give
:
00:55:55,565 --> 00:56:03,045
brands the chance to kind of get into
really big ideas with great experts,
:
00:56:03,095 --> 00:56:06,415
faster than they would normally
from a, a larger, slower agency.
:
00:56:06,515 --> 00:56:10,385
And also nice that we were able to
kind of come to some consensus around,
:
00:56:10,385 --> 00:56:15,715
what's important in terms of following
your skillset and your passion and
:
00:56:15,715 --> 00:56:17,285
not arguing about coffee creamers.
:
00:56:19,355 --> 00:56:19,905
Brian: Indeed.
:
00:56:19,915 --> 00:56:23,735
And great, great conversation about how
brands are interacting with the Superbowl.
:
00:56:24,215 --> 00:56:28,935
And yeah, always good to talk to somebody
who's kind of on top of the top of the
:
00:56:28,935 --> 00:56:30,825
industry and has a lot of great insights.
:
00:56:30,835 --> 00:56:32,075
So awesome conversation.
:
00:56:32,305 --> 00:56:33,835
John: And I've seen it from
so many different angles.
:
00:56:33,885 --> 00:56:35,115
So, all right.
:
00:56:35,175 --> 00:56:36,435
Well, thanks until next time.
:
00:56:36,985 --> 00:56:37,695
Brian: We'll see you next time.
:
00:56:37,695 --> 00:56:38,229
See
:
00:56:38,635 --> 00:56:39,025
John: Bye.
