Episode 14

full
Published on:

13th Sep 2024

Spring Outside: REI Creative Lead Jonathan Springer

Proving brands don’t need to spend big on ad agencies, REI’s in-house creative team is delivering high-impact marketing campaigns while showcasing the brand’s true purpose. Internal creative director Jonathan Springer joins us to share how the REI team recently launched its Opt Outside campaign. Anchored by a smart, beautiful commercial – shot on actual film AND featuring music by our hometown Philly band, Dr. Dog – Opt Outside creates a brand platform across media channels for REI. Hear Springer talk about the craft of communications, working on a brand with purpose, and the differences between in-house teams and ad agencies. (And no, the birds chirping in the background aren’t sound effects; Springer was simply letting the great outdoors join our session.)

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:52): Snap Decisions Lightning Round: Which brand does it better?

(03:46): Introducing Jonathan Springer, REI creative director

(06:02): REI’s Opt Outside campaign

(08:39): Dr. Dog asks: Where does all the time go?

(10:01): How the campaign reflects the brand purpose

(14:18): Managing an in-house creative team/ Internal vs. agency resources

(24:26): Finding and guiding creative talent

(29:40): Measuring brand performance

(31:29): Shooting on film!

Background content

REI Co-op Opt Outside - YouTube

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Transcript
John:

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, Brian.

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Brian: Hey, John, how was your summer?

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John: Uh, lightning fast.

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I don't remember a thing about it.

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How about you?

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Brian: Yeah, same.

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John: What have we been doing?

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Brian: I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Is it 2028 or something?

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John: know what we haven't been doing?

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Brian: what's that?

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John: Recording a podcast.

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So let's get to it.

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Hey,

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Brian: Let's get in it.

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John: all right.

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So we have an interesting

guest today from REI.

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Who's going to talk about a campaign that

was created by an internal creative group.

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Uh, and it got me thinking, Brian,

about, um, I guess we always think

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about how brands show up in the world.

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You're ready to go.

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All

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fire away.

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John: I've got a Snap Decisions

lightning round for you.

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Are you ready for that?

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Brian: Yes.

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Bring it.

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Yeah.

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John: So thinking about how brands show

up in general through their marketing, I'm

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not talking necessarily about advertising.

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That's one way, but could be packaging

could be, you know, emails you

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get from this brand or whatever.

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I'm going to give you some brands.

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I want you to tell me which

of them do a better job of

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consistently making you understand.

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what they stand for.

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You with me?

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And maybe a little bit of why.

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So here we go.

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Brian: All right.

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I'll do my best.

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John: Coming in strong

with Apple or Microsoft.

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Brian: Apple, I mean, come on.

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I mean, Microsoft shows up better in the

world than they used to, but I mean, it's

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not, it's not even really a competition.

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I still, there's so many things

that Microsoft does that I just

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don't understand, I don't think.

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And, uh, I just think Apple makes

it really simple to know what they,

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what they do and how it impacts you.

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John: Agree.

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All right.

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How about let's go to a different

category, our favorite insurance,

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progressive or Allstate.

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Brian: Um, I'm going

to go, uh, progressive.

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John: Okay.

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Brian: I just, yeah, I, I feel like

they, uh, they stand out a little

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better and, um, it connects more.

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John: Well, they're relentlessly

consistent with Flo and that other guy.

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I can't stand it, but okay.

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, All right, Brian, this

is right up your alley.

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Technology.

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Brian: Yeah.

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John: Workday or Salesforce.

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Brian: I'm going to say

Salesforce mostly because you

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can't stand Matthew McConaughey.

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John: I forgot about him

doing that, but yeah.

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Okay.

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How about switching categories

to, travel and hospitality.

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Airbnb or Marriott?

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Brian: Airbnb.

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I think they're hitting

it out of the park.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah, that's a really

nice type brand, isn't it?

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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John: Um, okay.

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Um, a band, a, uh, here's a

category that spends a ton of money.

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Uh, I don't know if they do a good job

of making anyone care, but they do spend

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money on marketing in every channel.

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Verizon Wireless or T Mobile?

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Brian: yeah, I'm gonna go Verizon.

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T Mobile's just annoying.

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John: Yeah.

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Okay.

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Um, and then we're going to go to, um, a

more fun category to close it out here.

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Lite, the classic, or Mike's

Hard Lemonade, the startup.

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Brian: Yeah, I'm a sucker

for the classic Miller Lite.

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To me, uh, they're kinda

undefeated right now, so.

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John: They still go back to that

tastes great, less filling, don't they?

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Brian: Hey man, tried and true.

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If it works, it works,

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John: Can't miss it.

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Brian: Yeah, I think they'll

always come back to that.

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, John: Let's move on and introduce

our guest, who has a lot to say

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about creating consumer perceptions

about what a brand means.

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He started his career working for an ad

agency as a designer and his growth over

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the years as an art director took him from

agencies in Kansas city to New York city.

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Where he grew a skill set that

covers pretty much every marketing

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channel from print to digital to TV.

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And he's done work that positions and

promotes stuff from bread to phone

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service to video games to insurance

and a lot of stuff in between.

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, Jonathan Springer has supported

agency clients who are large and

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small, including brands like Southwest

Airlines, Whole Foods, the U.

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S.

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Army, AT& T, eBay, just to name a few.

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And then he moved to REI where he is

a creative director for an in house

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team building ads and promotions and

digital units and everything you can

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think of he caught our attention a

couple months ago in early June with a

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LinkedIn post where he shared the launch

of a new opt outside campaign, which

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is a line that's now populating pretty

much everything that comes out of REI.

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Uh, he's also just back from a

bucket list trip where he spent two

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weeks in Paris for the Olympics.

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Please welcome Jonathan Springer.

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Springer: Wow.

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I'm blushing.

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Thank you.

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John: Yeah.

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Springer: Not going to be here.

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John: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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Thanks so much for joining us.

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Um, love to start the

conversation with that campaign.

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I, that really caught our eye.

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My brief description is it's, it

opens on a young woman who's kind of

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going through the daily grind of life.

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and it resolves to her

escape to the outdoors.

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And, you know, we liked

everything about it.

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Uh, there's a terrific, music track

behind it from a local band that Brian

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and I have liked for a while, Dr.

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Dog, and reveals a tagline of don't

let life distract you from living.

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Jonathan, can you kind of, Talk us

through that video in particular.

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You don't necessarily have to do it

the way you pitched it internally,

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but explain to someone who hasn't

seen that, that campaign video,

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explain it to us and, uh, and any other

campaign extensions you want to talk.

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Springer: Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, and first I would say,

feel free to call me Springer.

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The opt outside campaign, it's something

that we've been talking, I've been,

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I've been at REI for about two years

now, and one of the big things that

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I pitched when I was interviewing

was just how much I really loved the

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original opt outside platform when

it came out, about 10 years ago.

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and I just loved how it was a.

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A brand that stood for

something and took an action.

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and it was very simple, but yet

powerful in the marketplace.

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And so that was just a brand

that resonated with me.

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And I think throughout all of my agency

times, it's a brand that's resonated.

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And so when we started thinking about

how we want to reposition and what's our

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new brand platform for REA coming out?

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You know, we, we had done a few iterations

and I think we always just came back

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to, why isn't it just opt outside?

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Why can't we just own that?

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there's something really powerful.

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I think that's what everybody, you

know, quote unquote, everybody kind of

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knew us for and still does know us for.

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So how can we own that equity

that's already built in that?

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Um, and you know, actually live

that almost every single day.

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And that kind of, you know, circulated

for about a year and a half.

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And then we finally decided,

yeah, let's, let's do it.

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Um, this makes a lot of sense.

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I think the time is right.

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There's, you know, obviously some,

some headwinds and tailwinds that

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we're facing in culture that actually

allow that as well to happen.

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And so we, Went forward with it.

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And I think the team, you

know, did an amazing job.

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Huge shout out to, to Sam and

Matt, art director, copy and Angie.

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I'm bad ass designer.

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Um, who just really came up with the

entire system and, you know, Ryan

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Moline, I have to mention him as well.

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Um, who just really

brought it all together.

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It's just a great idea.

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It's a great line.

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It's very simple.

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And I think what the team did and

the strategy team really helped us do

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is identify some, you know, cultural

tension right now about how People

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just feel that time isn't theirs.

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They feel like, you know, there's a

lot of autopilot going on right now.

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we're all kind of doing the same thing

every single day, , it's always a

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bunch of cycles and it just kind of

seems like we're in the same patterns.

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So how do we break out of that?

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And how does the outdoors really

play into something like that?

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I think the team came up with exactly

what you described in the beginning.

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You know, someone's story of just going

through those motions day in and day out.

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and then finally choosing opting, right?

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And that's what we really focused on

here was the opt of that line of opt

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outside and having someone make a

conscious decision to break free, say

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enough is enough and take back some of

what they can, take back some control

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and literally just go have fun outside.

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so that was kind of the crux of it.

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you mentioned the Dr.

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Dog track.

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Um, it was actually one of like,

it's a main character in this

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John: yeah, it really is.

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Springer: Uh, we have no VO, in the spot.

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, there's no , speaking

roles from our talent.

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Um, you know, there's some, some

ambient laughter and stuff like that.

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But the, the team again

just came with this track.

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I, I had never heard of it before.

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Sorry, apologies.

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I'd never heard of, uh, Dr.

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Dog.

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Um, but when I heard this track,

I was like, that's pretty amazing.

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It's pretty perfect.

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John: Yeah.

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You couldn't have composed

something as I do, right?

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Like where does the time

go is literally the lyric.

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It's like tease up your

campaign so nicely.

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, Springer: and it just has a

great beat, a great melody.

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it's got a lot of energy, lots

of ups and downs, a lot of drama

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with it, exactly what we're

portraying, um, when we're shooting.

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Brian: feels like life.

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Springer: it just feels,

it felt, it felt great.

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so when we were combining that with

the amazing footage, getting us

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all of this film, all of this was

shot on film, by the way, which was

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John: Is anybody shooting on film anymore?

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That seems so rare.

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Springer: was, that was a challenge.

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I think like getting the team to say,

Hey, yes, you can go and, spend money on

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a singular track and you can spend money

on an entire film shoot was a big push, I

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think internally, but the result is just.

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we love it.

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and you know, Kodak loves it.

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Kodak reposted it.

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, Yeah, I think overall, I think just the

message was very simple of, you know,

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don't let life distract you from living.

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Choose to live life outside.

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John: Yeah, seems, seems like a perfect

match to the marketing strategy.

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And you mentioned the, the whole idea of

opt out side, or opt out, as a campaign,

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, so just for, for our listeners, if you

missed it somehow, back in:

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really created news when You did something

that seemed really anti retail by closing

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all of your stores on Black Friday and

encouraged employees and customers to

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skip shopping and connect with nature.

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So That move and the kind of the

underlying brand idea there shows, I would

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argue, an understanding of customers and

an empathy for customers that most brands

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don't have the guts to, to represent.

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how does that brand idea

permeate the culture at REI?

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Like, is that really true to, you

know, the internal culture and, you

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know, And do you feel a responsibility

to steward that broader positioning

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when you create market imagery?

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Obviously you just did, but you

know, have you always felt that?

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Springer: Yeah, I mean, personally,

that was one of the reasons why I

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wanted to work for REI and make the

shift from agency to going in house

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and I think I got really lucky by my,

my first experience being in house

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at REI because they actually believe

that, that work life balance going from

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working, you know, 70, 80 hour weeks

in agency land to, you know, Working

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40 hours and going to fuck off outside.

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Like, it's amazing.

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It's like, what more could you ask for?

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and I, and I do believe we value

that we have things like way days.

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it's like, go out and be in nature.

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go help your community, do your part,

um, on your time, your, you know,

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specific way of getting outside.

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we still, um, close our

doors every day for the past.

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You know, 10 years on Black Friday.

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It's a permanent thing now.

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Like we don't have to make

it some big announcement.

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It's just who we are.

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It's part of our DNA.

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Um,

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John: other outdoor companies

have joined you, right?

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Like other companies also closed

on Black Friday now, sort of a part

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of a broader movement you created.

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Yeah.

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Springer: It's still amazing to see

like the headlines of other brands

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and companies, like when they close

on Black Friday, it's, it's still big

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news and it's great to think, yeah, the

company I work for, they started that.

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We started that.

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Brian: I love is like, you have this thing that, Was so successful

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that everything that you do is

going to be measured against that.

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And, and you guys decided like, this is

who we are, like, why are we, why are

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we trying to spin in other directions

that will ultimately just be measured

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against like, this is who we are.

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So let's just be it.

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And it's kind of like, I'm sure

liberating to be like, let's just

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really continue to dive into this.

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And, and it, cause it is who we are

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Springer: absolutely.

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, It feels real.

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And I think when you, when, as a

brand, when you're lucky enough

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to find something that feels that

real, I mean, it's just great work.

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It's just going to permeate from that.

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there's no more burden of having

to compete with that because

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you, you're just living that.

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sure.

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You still have the pressure of

like, they closed on Black Friday.

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Amazing idea.

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Brian: somewhere.

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Yeah.

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Springer: and so, yeah, there will always

be that, um, but just the fact that we

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know that amazing idea started something

that will continue to be amazing.

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And what we, we as a brand can own

for quite a long time, if not forever.

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Brian: And I think that that was really

a peak in the craziness of black Friday.

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And I feel like it kind of brought

everybody back to normalcy a little

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bit, because brands aren't afraid to

like, Not go to just ridiculous lengths

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on, you know, the lines and waiting

and getting in on, on black Friday.

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And, and now.

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now it's okay to just like,

let's just let people, you know,

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live their life a little bit.

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So,

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Springer: That's, you know, the

balance that we as a retailer

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have to live with as well.

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Like right after Black Friday,

you know, there's still holiday.

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There's still sales going on and

we, you know, we're, are still

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ultimately, you know, But we'd

choose on one of the busiest,

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days of retail to say, it's crazy.

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Like there's a better way to

spend your time than in line

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for an awesome pair of shoes.

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I mean, unless they're really awesome.

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Right.

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Um,

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John: talking about those shoes.

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so, Jonathan, it seems to us like a lot

of, um, what consumers get exposed to,

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especially on holiday season, is some

big, slick, glossy productions, a lot

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of times built by, you know, traditional

ad agencies and big brands, but we

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know that a lot of brands are starting

to create these in house, creative,

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uh, Either agencies or creative teams

or, production teams or whatever.

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Can you talk about RAI's

in house agency setup?

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Are you guys, is it just a creative team?

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Do you still use outside agencies?

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Springer: Yeah, for sure.

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I wouldn't say that we consider

ourselves an agency, but we are

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about the size of a small agency.

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We have, you know, everyone from

designers, copywriters, art directors,

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associate creative directors, CDs.

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we're headed, you know, led by

what's like in a traditional agency

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would be an ECD on the role as well.

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so I mean, We're staffed pretty

traditionally, like an agency.

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. I think the big difference is, is

we work extremely closely with the

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day to day clients, quote unquote,

that you would have at an agency.

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we're in this

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John: So, as in, like, folks

in the marketing team and,

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Springer: Yeah, folks definitely on

the marketing team, um, integration.

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We work with our merch partners.

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People are buying the

stuff that we're selling.

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Um, we work with, our membership team,

because again, remember REI is a co op.

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we're member based.

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John: proud member right here.

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Springer: That's right.

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Thank you.

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and yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot

of factors that go into it and that's

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one of the, the big differences.

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,

John: And do you use outside agencies at all?

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Springer: Yeah, we have, we have some,

you know, help with specific channels.

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especially when we do productions as well.

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We, we definitely use outside,

agencies and vendors that,

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John: You've worked both sides, right?

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You've worked for an agency and

now you're working as kind of

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like an internal creative guy.

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What are the, what are the pros

and the cons of those two things?

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What's easier?

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What's harder?

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Springer: nothing is easy.

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It's work.

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I bounced around to a lot.

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think I was in maybe eight

agencies before I made the move.

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And.

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What's great about agency life

is I think first and foremost,

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it's, it's creative first.

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All the clients come to agencies

because they're like, we don't

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have this type of creativity or

this way of thinking internal.

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and we need, we need help with that.

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We need help to be able to tell our story.

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We need help to be able to get

what's on this piece of paper that

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we have an awesome strategy for,

but just out to the masses so that

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they care about us as a brand.

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It's a different way of thinking.

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and I think when they hire an

agency, they realize that that's

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what they're hiring, and agencies, I

feel tend to cater to that as well.

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the culture is a little bit different.

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and again, we're all working towards

delivering an amazing creative product.

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The variety at agencies

is also really amazing.

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You get to work on a lot of different

clients, really fast, really quick.

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sometimes that's also

a double edged sword.

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because you're working on a lot of

clients you may not actually care about.

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, Brian: in terms of like learning curve

was, was it just for you, was it kind of

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navigating the, the environment of just

having to sell in different things in a

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different way and having to work closely

with people that were maybe not as close

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to creative as you've always worked with?

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Springer: In house is, is

different, um, considerably.

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And I, and why I mentioned agencies

are, I believe are creative first and

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foremost is I, you know, and this isn't

a knock, um, on in house, like just in

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house isn't first and foremost about.

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It's about the bottom line of how we're

beating these goals and these KPIs and

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these objectives and creative is a part

of that, but it's not the only thing.

386

:

Oh my gosh.

387

:

Like terrible beat down

my ego right there.

388

:

When I have to say that, like

creative isn't the only thing.

389

:

Brian: Headline from this.

390

:

Springer: Ooh, I mean, ooh,

hyperventilating, but no, like, um,

391

:

John: We're here for you Springer.

392

:

Springer: um, no, it's like, you're,

you're part of something much larger.

393

:

Right.

394

:

And you're all working towards this goal.

395

:

Um, and again, creative is a part of that.

396

:

Create, it's not the only solve.

397

:

And I think that's, um, something that I'm

still learning and I'm still adjusting to,

398

:

Brian: yeah.

399

:

And, you know, forever, you know,

like you said, people bring in

400

:

agencies because they don't want them

to have to think about that stuff.

401

:

They want to think about the

creative and can they think about

402

:

that without the other noise?

403

:

And that's kind of how it's always been.

404

:

But, um, I'm sure that.

405

:

You know, you're able to provide a nice

cover for people that work for you and,

406

:

and let them focus on, you know, being

creative first as much as possible and,

407

:

Springer: yeah, that's, that's the goal.

408

:

Um, I mean, but again, we're, we're

All we all as creators have chosen to

409

:

be inside this brand and go in house.

410

:

John: So, uh, switching attention a

little bit to outside the organization.

411

:

Are there brands out there that are

creating campaigns with in house

412

:

talent like your team that you admire?

413

:

Anything you've noticed that

you know was created in house

414

:

that you think is just great?

415

:

Springer: Yeah, I would say Uber is

doing a really great job right now.

416

:

I used to work with, the head of, you

know, that, that creative team, at an

417

:

agency land, an ex, a lot of agency

people have gone in house to that team

418

:

and she's just built an amazing team.

419

:

And I think some of the work that they

did, you know, particularly around,

420

:

you know, some of the Olympics and how

they get their name out there almost.

421

:

in different ways.

422

:

Some of the celebrities

that they bring on.

423

:

I think that's a great brand.

424

:

I even thought, you know,

before,, Burger King was doing

425

:

great stuff, I think, in house.

426

:

They did use a lot of agencies,

um, but I think their, their

427

:

CMO was a big part of that.

428

:

Those are the kind of couple

that come to mind quickly.

429

:

John: Yeah, I'm amazed at some of the

stuff I see coming out of Google in

430

:

particular with in house creative.

431

:

And sometimes it's hard to know because,

you know, you're using a combination

432

:

of inside and outside resources.

433

:

Some campaigns are in

house, some are agency.

434

:

It's hard to know, but,

435

:

how about other trends

in marketing right now?

436

:

you know, obviously, AI tools is

becoming an everyday conversation.

437

:

Brian and I have talked to other

brands about using influencers.

438

:

Any of these trends that kind

of like top of mind for you and

439

:

what are you thinking about them?

440

:

Springer: Yeah, I mean, AI is something

we've, we've talked about a lot.

441

:

I think ad nauseum internally.

442

:

and it's, it's one thing that, you

know, we, we represent something very

443

:

natural and it's, it's not artificial.

444

:

You can literally go right outside

and it's real and you can touch grass.

445

:

and so how does that, That tool

of AI actually benefit and help

446

:

us, um, in a way that doesn't feel

fake or forced or, unauthentic

447

:

John: Does REI have, uh, policies

like clear policies yet on how

448

:

you will or won't use generative

AI, or is that still emerging?

449

:

Springer: it, it's still emerging.

450

:

you know, we're, we're, we're dabbling in

it as creatives and just seeing like what

451

:

it can do, but still, like, it's not, you

can tell it's, it, it, it doesn't feel.

452

:

It doesn't feel right for us quite yet.

453

:

I'm not sure if it ever will.

454

:

Like, I'm sure people

said that about Photoshop.

455

:

I'm sure people said that about

Figma and Rain, like other tools.

456

:

It's, I don't think it's the way or the,

you know, I think it's going to be again,

457

:

another tool that we, we shouldn't avoid.

458

:

but it's, we have to figure out how,

how to use it and what's the best way.

459

:

how do we own stuff on there and

not, not steal, artist creations.

460

:

I think that's something very real

that we're looking at as well.

461

:

where I 20 something, you know,

million member co op, like.

462

:

Can that somehow become our

database of source of information?

463

:

If people are willing to opt into

something like that, like where is our

464

:

information source come from and how

do we build from it as opposed to just.

465

:

trusting blindly that these companies are

doing it respectfully and responsibly.

466

:

So yeah, it's something that

we think about a lot right now,

467

:

but there's nothing solidified.

468

:

We're still shooting on film.

469

:

John: I was going to say, yeah,

there's a long, it's a long walk

470

:

from a film to, uh, AI created, uh,

video footage clips of three seconds.

471

:

Brian: Yeah.

472

:

And like, Can you talk about how

you guys are using, , or engaging

473

:

with user generated content?

474

:

I mean, I can only imagine the

amount of people that are tagging you

475

:

guys from the stuff they're doing,

being inspired by you guys, and I'm

476

:

sure you guys get inspired back.

477

:

Springer: Yeah.

478

:

I mean, it's something that we're actively

looking at yesterday, today, probably in

479

:

an hour when I hop off of this, like it's,

Becoming just member, you know, kind of

480

:

obsessed, um, and just putting members at

our forefront is very topical right now.

481

:

how we do that, how we do that responsibly

again, you know, is, is, again,

482

:

Something that we have to investigate.

483

:

There's campaigns and there's

opportunities for us to 100 percent just

484

:

give the camera to our members and say

there you go, go have fun and create.

485

:

we're starting to, you know, go back

through some of our archive of our

486

:

footage and pull forward footage

that feels very UGC of the members.

487

:

You know, that's, that's some of that

stuff's already out in the world, and

488

:

it'll continue to trickle out, in Q4 and

Q1, but yeah, I think it's, it's something

489

:

that we're, we're looking at right now,

just how to do ethically and responsibly,

490

:

so we just don't take advantage of this

member group, but also, you know, utilize

491

:

them as, as talent, as photographers,

As the resource that they actually are.

492

:

Brian: Your brand is the, how

people use it and, and, and it's the

493

:

feeling that they, that they have.

494

:

It's not just what you want it to be.

495

:

So, um, to be able to

have that as is fantastic.

496

:

John: Yeah.

497

:

I think Brian, your, your

question about user generated

498

:

content is really interesting.

499

:

Cause like as a co op, right?

500

:

These are members.

501

:

Springer, do they, do you feel like

they've got, do they feel more ownership

502

:

over the way REI shows up in the world?

503

:

You know, because they're members

or do you feel any pressure

504

:

to live up to that ownership?

505

:

Springer: Yeah.

506

:

I, I mean, I, again, I

don't think it's pressure.

507

:

I think it's something that's just

sitting right in front of us that

508

:

we have to, it's like opt outside.

509

:

, so it'll take, it'll take some time

for us to figure out and hopefully

510

:

by doing this more and having.

511

:

That call to action and that

actual nod that everything you're

512

:

seeing in our work is members.

513

:

And hopefully the co op, as a whole,

we'll be like, yes, we have influenced

514

:

our marketing and our advertising

515

:

Brian: in terms of, managing an in

house team, uh, can you talk a little

516

:

bit about finding creative today?

517

:

You know, it's kind of a wild job market

and, I'm sure it's a little overwhelming

518

:

trying to find the right person just

because there's so many people probably

519

:

reaching out when you guys put on a job.

520

:

Like, what is that like today?

521

:

Springer: again, it's

a double edged sword.

522

:

Um, it's, it's amazing that there's

so many great creative talent, but

523

:

it's also, Kind of heartbreaking and

depressing that there's so many great,

524

:

amazing, creative talent that just

aren't, able to find a spot, a home.

525

:

I just put up like a freelance writer

position and we had hundreds, if not,

526

:

you know, thousands of applicants

within the first three or four days.

527

:

And we just had to shut it down.

528

:

Cause I'm like, there's no way that

we don't have a solid candidate

529

:

and the amount of responses

that we already have received.

530

:

There's just, it's impossible.

531

:

John: How much of that do you

attribute to the fact that people

532

:

aspire to work at a brand like REI?

533

:

Is that a, is that a big deal or?

534

:

Springer: yeah, I mean,

that, that probably 100%

535

:

has, has a, a factor into it.

536

:

Again, it's, it's what, it's what took

me out of agencies, um, what alert, it's

537

:

all, Lord, a lot of great talent that's,

you know, precedes me being there as well.

538

:

I mean, you find a brand that

you can personally resonate

539

:

with and you believe in.

540

:

Um, actually does stand

for what they talk about.

541

:

,

Brian: What advice do you give to young creatives kind of

542

:

looking for an opportunity?

543

:

Springer: Yeah.

544

:

I've been thinking about this a lot.

545

:

Um, and I think it's

truly just be yourself.

546

:

I mean, don't try to be something that you

think you need to be for a company, or you

547

:

think you need to be for this particular

interview or this person or this role

548

:

if you fit, it's, it's going to happen.

549

:

Um, when I was interviewing for REI, they

asked me, you know, how outdoorsy I am.

550

:

I'm like, I have a kayak and you

know, I probably go once or twice.

551

:

You know, to the lake.

552

:

Beyond that, I'm like, I like to sit on

the couch and watch TV and work on cars

553

:

and my truck and play with motorcycles.

554

:

Like, I'm like, I'll mow the lawn,

you know, but it's like, I do believe

555

:

that, there's different ways of being

outside and, you know, living that

556

:

and feeling that, You know, we have

certain people on our team that run

557

:

marathons and whatever, like, and they,

they run ultra marathons and it blows

558

:

my mind when they talk about that.

559

:

, so it's just be who you are, be your

authentic self and do great work.

560

:

John: So this idea of authenticity has

come up a couple of times with you, you

561

:

know, in terms of the REI brand, in terms

of the advice you give to young creatives.

562

:

How often do you bump into stuff

that's, you know, percolating internally

563

:

that sometimes someone's got to say,

hang on, this isn't quite authentic

564

:

to who we are, what we stand for.

565

:

Do you bump into that once in a

while, or is it so ingrained that

566

:

those, those ideas don't pop up?

567

:

Springer: Now all the time.

568

:

John: All the time.

569

:

Springer: I think for the most

part, it's, and it happens like

570

:

when we're brainstorming, right?

571

:

And, uh, you know, we go down the rabbit

hole of, hey, that, that sounds funny.

572

:

And then it's like, oh, wait, you

know, like, someone will check us our

573

:

marketing team, our diversity team,

um, you know, a number of different

574

:

points throughout the process.

575

:

It's like, yo, this just

doesn't, you know, This doesn't

576

:

feel like I'm like, Oh, yeah.

577

:

Okay.

578

:

You're right.

579

:

John: So even though you've got that

really strong, really powerful North

580

:

star that's pulling everything in the

right direction, you still have stuff

581

:

that strays and you gotta it Correct.

582

:

Springer: Absolutely.

583

:

Uh, I mean, some you're, you're human.

584

:

as much as you can preach,

say, Oh, yeah, I'm authentic.

585

:

And actually, like, when you said

that, I wasn't even thinking that

586

:

I was like, man, this is great.

587

:

Great therapy session.

588

:

Um, just picking up on it.

589

:

People make mistakes and as long

as you learn and you can pivot and

590

:

you know, you're adaptable, great.

591

:

Like, that's fine.

592

:

Um, I will.

593

:

John: You hear that Brian?

594

:

People make mistakes.

595

:

Brian: I don't know.

596

:

I don't know.

597

:

I don't know.

598

:

Absolutely.

599

:

John: duo that kind of reminds Brian all

the time that, uh, people make mistakes.

600

:

That would be when I make mistakes.

601

:

Springer: Well shit happens, you know,

you can't control it, it's just how

602

:

you deal with it at the end of the day.

603

:

Brian: Absolutely.

604

:

Can you talk about how you, um,

work with your peers inside REI?

605

:

Is, uh, are you working with an

inside media team as well as,

606

:

you know, the marketing team?

607

:

Like how, how do you guys kind

of work internally to, you

608

:

know, bring everything together?

609

:

Springer: Yep, we have media, managers,

um, they work with a, a media, a company,

610

:

and yeah, we work, um, pretty closely

with them to try to figure out what

611

:

campaigns are designed to do what,

what channels will have the best reach.

612

:

and then they go and work their

magic to figure out the money and

613

:

how that all that works and how

that can potentially come to life.

614

:

And yeah, we, it's that nice compromise

and that nice balance of how, and

615

:

where the concept can come to life all

616

:

Brian: Yeah.

617

:

I'm sure there's a little like chicken or

the egg on the, You might have a different

618

:

kind of cut or format or, you know,

619

:

Springer: I mean, do you fully have

everything baked from the media plan

620

:

of this is what we need and you go and

execute or do you leave some space and

621

:

some room for the concept to be able

to, you know, help facilitate or dictate

622

:

what some of the placements might be?

623

:

Again, yeah, chicken and egg.

624

:

John: Do you get pretty good, uh, data

on, you know, either from the media

625

:

team, in terms of performance and

stuff, but what about in terms of like

626

:

brand metrics, you know, you mentioned

this is a, this is a new brand platform,

627

:

how do you know whether this is

resonating other than randoms reach

628

:

out to you on LinkedIn and say,

well, you'd be on our podcast.

629

:

How do you know that it's working?

630

:

Springer: I mean, I don't know

what a better metric than that is.

631

:

John: All right.

632

:

So you can success.

633

:

Springer: I, uh, yeah, no, we definitely

have a team that is, is monitoring our,

634

:

our brand tracker or our brand score.

635

:

Um, and we, we look at

that on the quarterly, um,

636

:

John: And obviously it goes

beyond awareness into like specific

637

:

like personality attributes

you're measuring against.

638

:

Is that right?

639

:

Springer: yep.

640

:

I'm looking at awareness

down into consideration down

641

:

into sentiment, all sorts of.

642

:

Data inside of an amazing PowerPoint, but

they just for us feeble minded creatives.

643

:

And there, we do pivot all the time, like

some of our creative of, you know, this

644

:

one's performing stronger than others.

645

:

John: And I know you've only, only

been there two years, so you know,

646

:

you don't have the longest track

record, but do you see, have you seen a

647

:

correlation between when brand metrics

are kind of bumping and increasing?

648

:

Does that correlate to sales increases

or kind of hard to know just yet?

649

:

Springer: haven't seen that quite yet.

650

:

Um, it's, it's something that we're,

we're trying to get better at.

651

:

What I would say, um, again, just

to also demonstrate the power and

652

:

the value of brand versus power

and value of new shoe, new tent.

653

:

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little

bit of, of, of both right now.

654

:

Cause I think we need

to educate internally.

655

:

Um, and we also need to figure out how and

why we're doing more and more brand stuff

656

:

or more and more product focused stuff.

657

:

But, uh, that's something

in our future for sure.

658

:

Brian: I want to talk a little

bit about what you've mentioned a

659

:

couple of times about using film.

660

:

Can you, can you give people a little

bit of an understanding on, you know,

661

:

making the decision to, to use film,

which I think is absolutely fantastic,

662

:

but how does that impact a shoot?

663

:

What changes have to be made

based off of making that decision?

664

:

And, um, and what, what is

that like for everybody?

665

:

Springer: It's scary.

666

:

There's a reason why we, you know,

the industry kind of went away from

667

:

film and this isn't the whole reason.

668

:

Like I would say, like,

there's just an ease factor.

669

:

It's just, you don't have to carry

around canisters and canisters of film.

670

:

The cameras are much smaller and

easier to You know, find and utilize,

671

:

um, you know, digital cameras are,

um, you can mimic certain film

672

:

attributes sometimes, sometimes.

673

:

, and digital is cheaper.

674

:

, and so like, why wouldn't

you just use digital?

675

:

Um, How did I sell and how did we

sell in film of it's just gorgeous.

676

:

It has a raw, a raw feeling.

677

:

The grain, the texture.

678

:

Um, there's just something that feels

kind of memory esque, um, a bit more

679

:

aspirational in my mind, not as polished.

680

:

It feels again, a bit more authentic.

681

:

Um, even though our commercial was

very, very scripted and very produced,

682

:

it's just felt real, something

that you could relate to again.

683

:

Maybe it's a bit dreamy.

684

:

It creates an atmosphere of depth.

685

:

Uh, I don't know.

686

:

There's just, I, I

could just go on and on.

687

:

And I think the result of what we

got, hopefully kind of speaks for it.

688

:

I mean, we're still shooting in

digital but we're starting to shoot

689

:

more and more film photography as well.

690

:

It is scary because you have to

trust at the end of the day as well

691

:

that what you just shot for two

hours, you actually have on film.

692

:

Brian: So scary just to hear you say that.

693

:

Yeah.

694

:

Springer: That, you know, fix

it in post isn't as easy, uh,

695

:

on film as it is in digital.

696

:

Like you, you have to go with it.

697

:

You have to cut around stuff and,

you know, you have to work with it.

698

:

And I think that's also kind of fun.

699

:

Um, it kind of adds to the

rawness, the realness of.

700

:

Shit, if only she'd, ah

man, how do we make it work?

701

:

Um, yeah, I don't know.

702

:

I think I, I will always push for film.

703

:

Um, and again, huge shout out to

the directors, Damian Blue and

704

:

our GP, Quinn Feldman, um, cause

they were just, monstrous on set.

705

:

Um, the cameras that they brought,

we went underwater with my camera.

706

:

And so we had a complete like a

hydro housing look like an atom bomb.

707

:

It was dropping it into the water

and its own little submarine tank.

708

:

And then we put a film

camera inside of a dryer.

709

:

And we spun the dryer around, like,

We were like actively googling

710

:

on the side the melting point of

film, To like, no, like, we were

711

:

Brian: What is it, by the way?

712

:

Springer: We were safe, but

713

:

John: know, you know, there's a,

there's an air cycle, you don't need

714

:

to turn the heat on those things.

715

:

Springer: No, we were like in some public

laundromat and it was, there was no air.

716

:

It was just like low, medium and high.

717

:

They built this amazing rig and actually

ran the dryer and ran it for a few times.

718

:

And again, it's one of those moments where

you're like, you're hoping you get it.

719

:

They have some monitors and some

feeds, but it's like a digital feed.

720

:

And so you're like, I hope.

721

:

What we're getting is,

is just as beautiful.

722

:

It's stressful, but I think the

end result, when you see it for

723

:

the first time, you're just like,

so happy that that was why, you

724

:

know, the decision you've made.

725

:

John: It's really cool to hear you

talk so lovingly about, about film, you

726

:

know, and now's a good time for us to

cut away to, uh, our sponsor promotion,

727

:

uh, Kodak has sponsored this episode.

728

:

So, uh, no, it really is cause you

know, the, your focus on the craft.

729

:

You know, it is something that I think

a lot of times I associate with what you

730

:

get at spending a lot of money going to,

you know, a big well staffed ad agency,

731

:

the fact that you're doing it in house,

the fact that you were able to sell in

732

:

the extra time and budget to get the craft

where it needs to be to reflect the brand.

733

:

It is, it is really neat to hear

and, and your enthusiasm for it

734

:

is really, uh, it's palpable.

735

:

So thanks for sharing that.

736

:

Springer: No, absolutely.

737

:

I mean, again, REI took,

you know, a chance, a risk.

738

:

I don't know, maybe they didn't

or, you know, hiring an agency guy.

739

:

Um, I think they did that for a reason.

740

:

Um, so for them to, to listen and

believe and trust, um, that we're going

741

:

to get an amazing product is, is great.

742

:

It's a good feeling.

743

:

John: Speaking of that, , do you

get the sense that there are more

744

:

creatives looking to move from agency

side to in house like you've done?

745

:

Springer: Absolutely.

746

:

John: There's more of that now.

747

:

Springer: Yeah, I, I, the,

the agency model is, is hard.

748

:

I mean, it's, it's exhausting and I

think that's one of the big things.

749

:

COVID, COVID was a great wake

up, um, because we don't have to

750

:

go into the office and actually

stay in the office all day.

751

:

We can work from home and that gave

us a, a bit more yearning to not

752

:

want to have to work from home.

753

:

So damn much.

754

:

And I can't speak for the entire industry.

755

:

And I, there's still people

that love the hustle.

756

:

I ultimately, sometimes I

still yearn for that myself.

757

:

Um, but not on a daily

basis, not on a weekly basis.

758

:

Um, rarely a monthly basis, but I, I

think that that shift, and if you're

759

:

able to find a place that has already

a solid in house team, yeah, why not?

760

:

Like hustle, make it, you know, you can,

you can still hop around if you need to.

761

:

You can still work on

different brands, right?

762

:

So I, I, I see that that trend just going

to continue, if not exponentially more.

763

:

That's my POE.

764

:

That's, sorry.

765

:

Brian: for me.

766

:

what, what sort of ways did you take your,

your larger commercial and kind of break

767

:

it down into other pieces of content?

768

:

Like, how have you been able

to use that That commercial to

769

:

distribute that in other ways,

770

:

Springer: a good question.

771

:

Um, I mean, we, we do a lot of

social short, we shot a lot and

772

:

that one spot was part of, I think,

six other spots that we shot.

773

:

Um, different times, time durations.

774

:

I mean, from that 30, I think we

got a 15, a 10, a six, and we've

775

:

got some still assets from it.

776

:

Um, the overall branding as well.

777

:

Everything that we used in there

was used across our entire system.

778

:

And I think just the again, the locations

that we shot at, we also for film,

779

:

um, the video we also shot and stills.

780

:

Um, so just looking at efficiencies across

the board for the production itself,

781

:

John: You got a lot of great

stuff from that campaign.

782

:

What's next before we let you go?

783

:

What's next for REI?

784

:

What are we going to

see from you guys next?

785

:

Springer: just the next

chapter of that opt outside.

786

:

I mean, that was our launch of just

reintroducing it back into the world of

787

:

saying, Hey, um, you can make a cognizant

choice to break some of this autopilot.

788

:

And we're just going to take it and

continue to expand upon that narrative.

789

:

John: We look forward to seeing it unfold

and, uh, and seeing your career progress.

790

:

We really appreciate you joining us.

791

:

It's been a great talking to you.

792

:

Springer: Thank you, Brian.

793

:

Thank you, John.

794

:

Brian: Can't wait to see what's next.

795

:

John: Yeah.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

Keep us outside.

798

:

Springer: Absolutely.

799

:

Brian: John, that was a great interview.

800

:

It's always nice talking to, um, the

people that are really connected into, um,

801

:

into the, into the brands they worked for.

802

:

And, Springer, um, you know,

he's just really inspired by that

803

:

brand and he's doing great things.

804

:

John: Yeah.

805

:

So, so mellow, so chill.

806

:

It's interesting how he seems to

kind of almost to me reflect a

807

:

little bit of that brand, right?

808

:

, He's all about simplicity

and clarity and authenticity.

809

:

And I think, you know, that's one

of the things that really stands

810

:

out to that, to me about that brand

is, you know, just really authentic.

811

:

No matter what you see, it just is

really about enjoying the outside.

812

:

Hmm.

813

:

Great

814

:

Brian: You know, a lot of times

when you, you hear about creating

815

:

efficiency by bringing a lot of

these, um, creative people in house.

816

:

, it usually means that they're gonna, you

know, just be not take as many chances.

817

:

And, uh, And they're

really swinging for it.

818

:

I love that they're using film.

819

:

I love that they're, um, really

digging into this, opt outside

820

:

identity and really weaving it into

the stories that they're telling.

821

:

And, um, so I, it's a, it's a great story.

822

:

John: Yeah, it really is a great point

about that, about that team not taking

823

:

the easy path, but you know, getting

outside their lane and getting outside,

824

:

Brian: Yeah.

825

:

Inspiring to see that, you know, you

can still, achieve what creative

826

:

people want to do at an agency,

you know, with, uh, with a brand.

827

:

So, um, that's a good story

for a lot of people to hear.

828

:

John: you know, probably easier for them

because hearing him talk, it does seem

829

:

like they have all bought in, right?

830

:

They truly do enjoy what

the brand stands for,.

831

:

Yeah.

832

:

Brian: Absolutely.

833

:

John: All right.

834

:

Well, speaking about caring, uh,

Brian, I care very much that we

835

:

got this podcast done and that

we've got another one lined up.

836

:

Brian: I'm glad we still

remember how to do it.

837

:

Well, you know, for our listeners,

stay tuned for another great episode

838

:

coming up in the next couple of weeks.

839

:

As always, if you enjoy the episode,

make sure to share it on social.

840

:

You know, tell your friends

841

:

John: Tell your friends.

842

:

Hell, tell your enemies.

843

:

We don't care.

844

:

Tell anybody.

845

:

Brian: Matthew McConaughey.

846

:

John: Tell Matthew McConaughey.

847

:

All right, man.

848

:

See you later.

849

:

Brian: All right.

850

:

See ya.

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About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia