Spring Outside: REI Creative Lead Jonathan Springer
Proving brands don’t need to spend big on ad agencies, REI’s in-house creative team is delivering high-impact marketing campaigns while showcasing the brand’s true purpose. Internal creative director Jonathan Springer joins us to share how the REI team recently launched its Opt Outside campaign. Anchored by a smart, beautiful commercial – shot on actual film AND featuring music by our hometown Philly band, Dr. Dog – Opt Outside creates a brand platform across media channels for REI. Hear Springer talk about the craft of communications, working on a brand with purpose, and the differences between in-house teams and ad agencies. (And no, the birds chirping in the background aren’t sound effects; Springer was simply letting the great outdoors join our session.)
Key topics & chapter markers
(00:52): Snap Decisions Lightning Round: Which brand does it better?
(03:46): Introducing Jonathan Springer, REI creative director
(06:02): REI’s Opt Outside campaign
(08:39): Dr. Dog asks: Where does all the time go?
(10:01): How the campaign reflects the brand purpose
(14:18): Managing an in-house creative team/ Internal vs. agency resources
(24:26): Finding and guiding creative talent
(29:40): Measuring brand performance
(31:29): Shooting on film!
Background content
REI Co-op Opt Outside - YouTube
Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:
Transcript
Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, Brian.
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:Brian: Hey, John, how was your summer?
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:John: Uh, lightning fast.
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:I don't remember a thing about it.
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:How about you?
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:Brian: Yeah, same.
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:John: What have we been doing?
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:Brian: I don't know.
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:I don't know.
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:Is it 2028 or something?
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:John: know what we haven't been doing?
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:Brian: what's that?
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:John: Recording a podcast.
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:So let's get to it.
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:Hey,
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:Brian: Let's get in it.
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:John: all right.
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:So we have an interesting
guest today from REI.
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:Who's going to talk about a campaign that
was created by an internal creative group.
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:Uh, and it got me thinking, Brian,
about, um, I guess we always think
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:about how brands show up in the world.
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:You're ready to go.
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:All
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:Brian: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Fire away.
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:John: I've got a Snap Decisions
lightning round for you.
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:Are you ready for that?
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:Brian: Yes.
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:Bring it.
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:Yeah.
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:John: So thinking about how brands show
up in general through their marketing, I'm
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:not talking necessarily about advertising.
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:That's one way, but could be packaging
could be, you know, emails you
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:get from this brand or whatever.
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:I'm going to give you some brands.
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:I want you to tell me which
of them do a better job of
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:consistently making you understand.
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:what they stand for.
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:You with me?
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:And maybe a little bit of why.
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:So here we go.
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:Brian: All right.
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:I'll do my best.
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:John: Coming in strong
with Apple or Microsoft.
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:Brian: Apple, I mean, come on.
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:I mean, Microsoft shows up better in the
world than they used to, but I mean, it's
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:not, it's not even really a competition.
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:I still, there's so many things
that Microsoft does that I just
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:don't understand, I don't think.
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:And, uh, I just think Apple makes
it really simple to know what they,
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:what they do and how it impacts you.
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:John: Agree.
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:All right.
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:How about let's go to a different
category, our favorite insurance,
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:progressive or Allstate.
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:Brian: Um, I'm going
to go, uh, progressive.
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:John: Okay.
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:Brian: I just, yeah, I, I feel like
they, uh, they stand out a little
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:better and, um, it connects more.
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:John: Well, they're relentlessly
consistent with Flo and that other guy.
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:I can't stand it, but okay.
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:, All right, Brian, this
is right up your alley.
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:Technology.
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:Brian: Yeah.
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:John: Workday or Salesforce.
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:Brian: I'm going to say
Salesforce mostly because you
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:can't stand Matthew McConaughey.
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:John: I forgot about him
doing that, but yeah.
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:Okay.
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:How about switching categories
to, travel and hospitality.
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:Airbnb or Marriott?
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:Brian: Airbnb.
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:I think they're hitting
it out of the park.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Yeah, that's a really
nice type brand, isn't it?
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:Brian: Yeah.
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:Yeah,
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:John: Um, okay.
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:Um, a band, a, uh, here's a
category that spends a ton of money.
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:Uh, I don't know if they do a good job
of making anyone care, but they do spend
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:money on marketing in every channel.
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:Verizon Wireless or T Mobile?
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:Brian: yeah, I'm gonna go Verizon.
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:T Mobile's just annoying.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Okay.
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:Um, and then we're going to go to, um, a
more fun category to close it out here.
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:Lite, the classic, or Mike's
Hard Lemonade, the startup.
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:Brian: Yeah, I'm a sucker
for the classic Miller Lite.
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:To me, uh, they're kinda
undefeated right now, so.
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:John: They still go back to that
tastes great, less filling, don't they?
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:Brian: Hey man, tried and true.
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:If it works, it works,
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:John: Can't miss it.
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:Brian: Yeah, I think they'll
always come back to that.
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:, John: Let's move on and introduce
our guest, who has a lot to say
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:about creating consumer perceptions
about what a brand means.
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:He started his career working for an ad
agency as a designer and his growth over
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:the years as an art director took him from
agencies in Kansas city to New York city.
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:Where he grew a skill set that
covers pretty much every marketing
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:channel from print to digital to TV.
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:And he's done work that positions and
promotes stuff from bread to phone
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:service to video games to insurance
and a lot of stuff in between.
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:, Jonathan Springer has supported
agency clients who are large and
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:small, including brands like Southwest
Airlines, Whole Foods, the U.
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:S.
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:Army, AT& T, eBay, just to name a few.
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:And then he moved to REI where he is
a creative director for an in house
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:team building ads and promotions and
digital units and everything you can
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:think of he caught our attention a
couple months ago in early June with a
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:LinkedIn post where he shared the launch
of a new opt outside campaign, which
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:is a line that's now populating pretty
much everything that comes out of REI.
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:Uh, he's also just back from a
bucket list trip where he spent two
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:weeks in Paris for the Olympics.
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:Please welcome Jonathan Springer.
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:Springer: Wow.
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:I'm blushing.
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:Thank you.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Springer: Not going to be here.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Thanks.
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:Thanks so much for joining us.
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:Um, love to start the
conversation with that campaign.
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:I, that really caught our eye.
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:My brief description is it's, it
opens on a young woman who's kind of
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:going through the daily grind of life.
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:and it resolves to her
escape to the outdoors.
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:And, you know, we liked
everything about it.
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:Uh, there's a terrific, music track
behind it from a local band that Brian
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:and I have liked for a while, Dr.
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:Dog, and reveals a tagline of don't
let life distract you from living.
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:Jonathan, can you kind of, Talk us
through that video in particular.
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:You don't necessarily have to do it
the way you pitched it internally,
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:but explain to someone who hasn't
seen that, that campaign video,
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:explain it to us and, uh, and any other
campaign extensions you want to talk.
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:Springer: Yeah, absolutely.
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:Uh, and first I would say,
feel free to call me Springer.
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:The opt outside campaign, it's something
that we've been talking, I've been,
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:I've been at REI for about two years
now, and one of the big things that
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:I pitched when I was interviewing
was just how much I really loved the
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:original opt outside platform when
it came out, about 10 years ago.
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:and I just loved how it was a.
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:A brand that stood for
something and took an action.
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:and it was very simple, but yet
powerful in the marketplace.
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:And so that was just a brand
that resonated with me.
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:And I think throughout all of my agency
times, it's a brand that's resonated.
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:And so when we started thinking about
how we want to reposition and what's our
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:new brand platform for REA coming out?
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:You know, we, we had done a few iterations
and I think we always just came back
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:to, why isn't it just opt outside?
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:Why can't we just own that?
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:there's something really powerful.
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:I think that's what everybody, you
know, quote unquote, everybody kind of
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:knew us for and still does know us for.
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:So how can we own that equity
that's already built in that?
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:Um, and you know, actually live
that almost every single day.
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:And that kind of, you know, circulated
for about a year and a half.
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:And then we finally decided,
yeah, let's, let's do it.
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:Um, this makes a lot of sense.
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:I think the time is right.
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:There's, you know, obviously some,
some headwinds and tailwinds that
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:we're facing in culture that actually
allow that as well to happen.
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:And so we, Went forward with it.
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:And I think the team, you
know, did an amazing job.
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:Huge shout out to, to Sam and
Matt, art director, copy and Angie.
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:I'm bad ass designer.
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:Um, who just really came up with the
entire system and, you know, Ryan
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:Moline, I have to mention him as well.
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:Um, who just really
brought it all together.
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:It's just a great idea.
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:It's a great line.
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:It's very simple.
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:And I think what the team did and
the strategy team really helped us do
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:is identify some, you know, cultural
tension right now about how People
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:just feel that time isn't theirs.
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:They feel like, you know, there's a
lot of autopilot going on right now.
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:we're all kind of doing the same thing
every single day, , it's always a
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:bunch of cycles and it just kind of
seems like we're in the same patterns.
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:So how do we break out of that?
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:And how does the outdoors really
play into something like that?
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:I think the team came up with exactly
what you described in the beginning.
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:You know, someone's story of just going
through those motions day in and day out.
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:and then finally choosing opting, right?
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:And that's what we really focused on
here was the opt of that line of opt
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:outside and having someone make a
conscious decision to break free, say
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:enough is enough and take back some of
what they can, take back some control
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:and literally just go have fun outside.
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:so that was kind of the crux of it.
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:you mentioned the Dr.
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:Dog track.
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:Um, it was actually one of like,
it's a main character in this
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:John: yeah, it really is.
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:Springer: Uh, we have no VO, in the spot.
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:, there's no , speaking
roles from our talent.
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:Um, you know, there's some, some
ambient laughter and stuff like that.
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:But the, the team again
just came with this track.
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:I, I had never heard of it before.
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:Sorry, apologies.
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:I'd never heard of, uh, Dr.
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:Dog.
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:Um, but when I heard this track,
I was like, that's pretty amazing.
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:It's pretty perfect.
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:John: Yeah.
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:You couldn't have composed
something as I do, right?
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:Like where does the time
go is literally the lyric.
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:It's like tease up your
campaign so nicely.
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:, Springer: and it just has a
great beat, a great melody.
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:it's got a lot of energy, lots
of ups and downs, a lot of drama
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:with it, exactly what we're
portraying, um, when we're shooting.
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:,
Brian: feels like life.
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:Springer: it just feels,
it felt, it felt great.
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:so when we were combining that with
the amazing footage, getting us
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:all of this film, all of this was
shot on film, by the way, which was
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:John: Is anybody shooting on film anymore?
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:That seems so rare.
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:Springer: was, that was a challenge.
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:I think like getting the team to say,
Hey, yes, you can go and, spend money on
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:a singular track and you can spend money
on an entire film shoot was a big push, I
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:think internally, but the result is just.
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:we love it.
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:and you know, Kodak loves it.
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:Kodak reposted it.
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:, Yeah, I think overall, I think just the
message was very simple of, you know,
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:don't let life distract you from living.
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:Choose to live life outside.
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:John: Yeah, seems, seems like a perfect
match to the marketing strategy.
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:And you mentioned the, the whole idea of
opt out side, or opt out, as a campaign,
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:, so just for, for our listeners, if you
missed it somehow, back in:
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:really created news when You did something
that seemed really anti retail by closing
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:all of your stores on Black Friday and
encouraged employees and customers to
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:skip shopping and connect with nature.
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:So That move and the kind of the
underlying brand idea there shows, I would
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:argue, an understanding of customers and
an empathy for customers that most brands
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:don't have the guts to, to represent.
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:how does that brand idea
permeate the culture at REI?
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:Like, is that really true to, you
know, the internal culture and, you
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:know, And do you feel a responsibility
to steward that broader positioning
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:when you create market imagery?
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:Obviously you just did, but you
know, have you always felt that?
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:Springer: Yeah, I mean, personally,
that was one of the reasons why I
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:wanted to work for REI and make the
shift from agency to going in house
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:and I think I got really lucky by my,
my first experience being in house
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:at REI because they actually believe
that, that work life balance going from
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:working, you know, 70, 80 hour weeks
in agency land to, you know, Working
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:40 hours and going to fuck off outside.
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:Like, it's amazing.
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:It's like, what more could you ask for?
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:and I, and I do believe we value
that we have things like way days.
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:it's like, go out and be in nature.
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:go help your community, do your part,
um, on your time, your, you know,
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:specific way of getting outside.
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:we still, um, close our
doors every day for the past.
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:You know, 10 years on Black Friday.
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:It's a permanent thing now.
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:Like we don't have to make
it some big announcement.
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:It's just who we are.
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:It's part of our DNA.
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:Um,
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:John: other outdoor companies
have joined you, right?
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:Like other companies also closed
on Black Friday now, sort of a part
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:of a broader movement you created.
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:Yeah.
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:Springer: It's still amazing to see
like the headlines of other brands
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:and companies, like when they close
on Black Friday, it's, it's still big
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:news and it's great to think, yeah, the
company I work for, they started that.
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:We started that.
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:,
Brian: I love is like, you have this thing that, Was so successful
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:that everything that you do is
going to be measured against that.
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:And, and you guys decided like, this is
who we are, like, why are we, why are
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:we trying to spin in other directions
that will ultimately just be measured
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:against like, this is who we are.
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:So let's just be it.
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:And it's kind of like, I'm sure
liberating to be like, let's just
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:really continue to dive into this.
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:And, and it, cause it is who we are
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:Springer: absolutely.
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:, It feels real.
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:And I think when you, when, as a
brand, when you're lucky enough
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:to find something that feels that
real, I mean, it's just great work.
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:It's just going to permeate from that.
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:there's no more burden of having
to compete with that because
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:you, you're just living that.
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:sure.
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:You still have the pressure of
like, they closed on Black Friday.
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:Amazing idea.
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:Brian: somewhere.
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:Yeah.
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:Springer: and so, yeah, there will always
be that, um, but just the fact that we
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:know that amazing idea started something
that will continue to be amazing.
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:And what we, we as a brand can own
for quite a long time, if not forever.
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:Brian: And I think that that was really
a peak in the craziness of black Friday.
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:And I feel like it kind of brought
everybody back to normalcy a little
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:bit, because brands aren't afraid to
like, Not go to just ridiculous lengths
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:on, you know, the lines and waiting
and getting in on, on black Friday.
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:And, and now.
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:now it's okay to just like,
let's just let people, you know,
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:live their life a little bit.
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:So,
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:Springer: That's, you know, the
balance that we as a retailer
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:have to live with as well.
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:Like right after Black Friday,
you know, there's still holiday.
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:There's still sales going on and
we, you know, we're, are still
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:ultimately, you know, But we'd
choose on one of the busiest,
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:days of retail to say, it's crazy.
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:Like there's a better way to
spend your time than in line
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:for an awesome pair of shoes.
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:I mean, unless they're really awesome.
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:Right.
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:Um,
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:John: talking about those shoes.
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:so, Jonathan, it seems to us like a lot
of, um, what consumers get exposed to,
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:especially on holiday season, is some
big, slick, glossy productions, a lot
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:of times built by, you know, traditional
ad agencies and big brands, but we
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:know that a lot of brands are starting
to create these in house, creative,
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:uh, Either agencies or creative teams
or, production teams or whatever.
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:Can you talk about RAI's
in house agency setup?
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:Are you guys, is it just a creative team?
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:Do you still use outside agencies?
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:Springer: Yeah, for sure.
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:I wouldn't say that we consider
ourselves an agency, but we are
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:about the size of a small agency.
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:We have, you know, everyone from
designers, copywriters, art directors,
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:associate creative directors, CDs.
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:we're headed, you know, led by
what's like in a traditional agency
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:would be an ECD on the role as well.
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:so I mean, We're staffed pretty
traditionally, like an agency.
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:. I think the big difference is, is
we work extremely closely with the
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:day to day clients, quote unquote,
that you would have at an agency.
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:we're in this
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:John: So, as in, like, folks
in the marketing team and,
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:Springer: Yeah, folks definitely on
the marketing team, um, integration.
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:We work with our merch partners.
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:People are buying the
stuff that we're selling.
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:Um, we work with, our membership team,
because again, remember REI is a co op.
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:we're member based.
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:John: proud member right here.
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:Springer: That's right.
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:Thank you.
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:and yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot
of factors that go into it and that's
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:one of the, the big differences.
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:,
John: And do you use outside agencies at all?
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:Springer: Yeah, we have, we have some,
you know, help with specific channels.
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:especially when we do productions as well.
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:We, we definitely use outside,
agencies and vendors that,
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:John: You've worked both sides, right?
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:You've worked for an agency and
now you're working as kind of
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:like an internal creative guy.
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:What are the, what are the pros
and the cons of those two things?
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:What's easier?
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:What's harder?
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:Springer: nothing is easy.
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:It's work.
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:I bounced around to a lot.
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:think I was in maybe eight
agencies before I made the move.
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:And.
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:What's great about agency life
is I think first and foremost,
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:it's, it's creative first.
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:All the clients come to agencies
because they're like, we don't
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:have this type of creativity or
this way of thinking internal.
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:and we need, we need help with that.
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:We need help to be able to tell our story.
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:We need help to be able to get
what's on this piece of paper that
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:we have an awesome strategy for,
but just out to the masses so that
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:they care about us as a brand.
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:It's a different way of thinking.
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:and I think when they hire an
agency, they realize that that's
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:what they're hiring, and agencies, I
feel tend to cater to that as well.
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:the culture is a little bit different.
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:and again, we're all working towards
delivering an amazing creative product.
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:The variety at agencies
is also really amazing.
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:You get to work on a lot of different
clients, really fast, really quick.
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:sometimes that's also
a double edged sword.
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:because you're working on a lot of
clients you may not actually care about.
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:, Brian: in terms of like learning curve
was, was it just for you, was it kind of
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:navigating the, the environment of just
having to sell in different things in a
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:different way and having to work closely
with people that were maybe not as close
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:to creative as you've always worked with?
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:Springer: In house is, is
different, um, considerably.
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:And I, and why I mentioned agencies
are, I believe are creative first and
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:foremost is I, you know, and this isn't
a knock, um, on in house, like just in
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:house isn't first and foremost about.
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:It's about the bottom line of how we're
beating these goals and these KPIs and
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:these objectives and creative is a part
of that, but it's not the only thing.
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:Oh my gosh.
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:Like terrible beat down
my ego right there.
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:When I have to say that, like
creative isn't the only thing.
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:Brian: Headline from this.
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:Springer: Ooh, I mean, ooh,
hyperventilating, but no, like, um,
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:John: We're here for you Springer.
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:Springer: um, no, it's like, you're,
you're part of something much larger.
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:Right.
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:And you're all working towards this goal.
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:Um, and again, creative is a part of that.
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:Create, it's not the only solve.
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:And I think that's, um, something that I'm
still learning and I'm still adjusting to,
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:Brian: yeah.
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:And, you know, forever, you know,
like you said, people bring in
400
:agencies because they don't want them
to have to think about that stuff.
401
:They want to think about the
creative and can they think about
402
:that without the other noise?
403
:And that's kind of how it's always been.
404
:But, um, I'm sure that.
405
:You know, you're able to provide a nice
cover for people that work for you and,
406
:and let them focus on, you know, being
creative first as much as possible and,
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:Springer: yeah, that's, that's the goal.
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:Um, I mean, but again, we're, we're
All we all as creators have chosen to
409
:be inside this brand and go in house.
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:John: So, uh, switching attention a
little bit to outside the organization.
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:Are there brands out there that are
creating campaigns with in house
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:talent like your team that you admire?
413
:Anything you've noticed that
you know was created in house
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:that you think is just great?
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:Springer: Yeah, I would say Uber is
doing a really great job right now.
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:I used to work with, the head of, you
know, that, that creative team, at an
417
:agency land, an ex, a lot of agency
people have gone in house to that team
418
:and she's just built an amazing team.
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:And I think some of the work that they
did, you know, particularly around,
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:you know, some of the Olympics and how
they get their name out there almost.
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:in different ways.
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:Some of the celebrities
that they bring on.
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:I think that's a great brand.
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:I even thought, you know,
before,, Burger King was doing
425
:great stuff, I think, in house.
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:They did use a lot of agencies,
um, but I think their, their
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:CMO was a big part of that.
428
:Those are the kind of couple
that come to mind quickly.
429
:John: Yeah, I'm amazed at some of the
stuff I see coming out of Google in
430
:particular with in house creative.
431
:And sometimes it's hard to know because,
you know, you're using a combination
432
:of inside and outside resources.
433
:Some campaigns are in
house, some are agency.
434
:It's hard to know, but,
435
:how about other trends
in marketing right now?
436
:you know, obviously, AI tools is
becoming an everyday conversation.
437
:Brian and I have talked to other
brands about using influencers.
438
:Any of these trends that kind
of like top of mind for you and
439
:what are you thinking about them?
440
:Springer: Yeah, I mean, AI is something
we've, we've talked about a lot.
441
:I think ad nauseum internally.
442
:and it's, it's one thing that, you
know, we, we represent something very
443
:natural and it's, it's not artificial.
444
:You can literally go right outside
and it's real and you can touch grass.
445
:and so how does that, That tool
of AI actually benefit and help
446
:us, um, in a way that doesn't feel
fake or forced or, unauthentic
447
:John: Does REI have, uh, policies
like clear policies yet on how
448
:you will or won't use generative
AI, or is that still emerging?
449
:Springer: it, it's still emerging.
450
:you know, we're, we're, we're dabbling in
it as creatives and just seeing like what
451
:it can do, but still, like, it's not, you
can tell it's, it, it, it doesn't feel.
452
:It doesn't feel right for us quite yet.
453
:I'm not sure if it ever will.
454
:Like, I'm sure people
said that about Photoshop.
455
:I'm sure people said that about
Figma and Rain, like other tools.
456
:It's, I don't think it's the way or the,
you know, I think it's going to be again,
457
:another tool that we, we shouldn't avoid.
458
:but it's, we have to figure out how,
how to use it and what's the best way.
459
:how do we own stuff on there and
not, not steal, artist creations.
460
:I think that's something very real
that we're looking at as well.
461
:where I 20 something, you know,
million member co op, like.
462
:Can that somehow become our
database of source of information?
463
:If people are willing to opt into
something like that, like where is our
464
:information source come from and how
do we build from it as opposed to just.
465
:trusting blindly that these companies are
doing it respectfully and responsibly.
466
:So yeah, it's something that
we think about a lot right now,
467
:but there's nothing solidified.
468
:We're still shooting on film.
469
:John: I was going to say, yeah,
there's a long, it's a long walk
470
:from a film to, uh, AI created, uh,
video footage clips of three seconds.
471
:Brian: Yeah.
472
:And like, Can you talk about how
you guys are using, , or engaging
473
:with user generated content?
474
:I mean, I can only imagine the
amount of people that are tagging you
475
:guys from the stuff they're doing,
being inspired by you guys, and I'm
476
:sure you guys get inspired back.
477
:Springer: Yeah.
478
:I mean, it's something that we're actively
looking at yesterday, today, probably in
479
:an hour when I hop off of this, like it's,
Becoming just member, you know, kind of
480
:obsessed, um, and just putting members at
our forefront is very topical right now.
481
:how we do that, how we do that responsibly
again, you know, is, is, again,
482
:Something that we have to investigate.
483
:There's campaigns and there's
opportunities for us to 100 percent just
484
:give the camera to our members and say
there you go, go have fun and create.
485
:we're starting to, you know, go back
through some of our archive of our
486
:footage and pull forward footage
that feels very UGC of the members.
487
:You know, that's, that's some of that
stuff's already out in the world, and
488
:it'll continue to trickle out, in Q4 and
Q1, but yeah, I think it's, it's something
489
:that we're, we're looking at right now,
just how to do ethically and responsibly,
490
:so we just don't take advantage of this
member group, but also, you know, utilize
491
:them as, as talent, as photographers,
As the resource that they actually are.
492
:Brian: Your brand is the, how
people use it and, and, and it's the
493
:feeling that they, that they have.
494
:It's not just what you want it to be.
495
:So, um, to be able to
have that as is fantastic.
496
:John: Yeah.
497
:I think Brian, your, your
question about user generated
498
:content is really interesting.
499
:Cause like as a co op, right?
500
:These are members.
501
:Springer, do they, do you feel like
they've got, do they feel more ownership
502
:over the way REI shows up in the world?
503
:You know, because they're members
or do you feel any pressure
504
:to live up to that ownership?
505
:Springer: Yeah.
506
:I, I mean, I, again, I
don't think it's pressure.
507
:I think it's something that's just
sitting right in front of us that
508
:we have to, it's like opt outside.
509
:, so it'll take, it'll take some time
for us to figure out and hopefully
510
:by doing this more and having.
511
:That call to action and that
actual nod that everything you're
512
:seeing in our work is members.
513
:And hopefully the co op, as a whole,
we'll be like, yes, we have influenced
514
:our marketing and our advertising
515
:Brian: in terms of, managing an in
house team, uh, can you talk a little
516
:bit about finding creative today?
517
:You know, it's kind of a wild job market
and, I'm sure it's a little overwhelming
518
:trying to find the right person just
because there's so many people probably
519
:reaching out when you guys put on a job.
520
:Like, what is that like today?
521
:Springer: again, it's
a double edged sword.
522
:Um, it's, it's amazing that there's
so many great creative talent, but
523
:it's also, Kind of heartbreaking and
depressing that there's so many great,
524
:amazing, creative talent that just
aren't, able to find a spot, a home.
525
:I just put up like a freelance writer
position and we had hundreds, if not,
526
:you know, thousands of applicants
within the first three or four days.
527
:And we just had to shut it down.
528
:Cause I'm like, there's no way that
we don't have a solid candidate
529
:and the amount of responses
that we already have received.
530
:There's just, it's impossible.
531
:John: How much of that do you
attribute to the fact that people
532
:aspire to work at a brand like REI?
533
:Is that a, is that a big deal or?
534
:Springer: yeah, I mean,
that, that probably 100%
535
:has, has a, a factor into it.
536
:Again, it's, it's what, it's what took
me out of agencies, um, what alert, it's
537
:all, Lord, a lot of great talent that's,
you know, precedes me being there as well.
538
:I mean, you find a brand that
you can personally resonate
539
:with and you believe in.
540
:Um, actually does stand
for what they talk about.
541
:,
Brian: What advice do you give to young creatives kind of
542
:looking for an opportunity?
543
:Springer: Yeah.
544
:I've been thinking about this a lot.
545
:Um, and I think it's
truly just be yourself.
546
:I mean, don't try to be something that you
think you need to be for a company, or you
547
:think you need to be for this particular
interview or this person or this role
548
:if you fit, it's, it's going to happen.
549
:Um, when I was interviewing for REI, they
asked me, you know, how outdoorsy I am.
550
:I'm like, I have a kayak and you
know, I probably go once or twice.
551
:You know, to the lake.
552
:Beyond that, I'm like, I like to sit on
the couch and watch TV and work on cars
553
:and my truck and play with motorcycles.
554
:Like, I'm like, I'll mow the lawn,
you know, but it's like, I do believe
555
:that, there's different ways of being
outside and, you know, living that
556
:and feeling that, You know, we have
certain people on our team that run
557
:marathons and whatever, like, and they,
they run ultra marathons and it blows
558
:my mind when they talk about that.
559
:, so it's just be who you are, be your
authentic self and do great work.
560
:John: So this idea of authenticity has
come up a couple of times with you, you
561
:know, in terms of the REI brand, in terms
of the advice you give to young creatives.
562
:How often do you bump into stuff
that's, you know, percolating internally
563
:that sometimes someone's got to say,
hang on, this isn't quite authentic
564
:to who we are, what we stand for.
565
:Do you bump into that once in a
while, or is it so ingrained that
566
:those, those ideas don't pop up?
567
:Springer: Now all the time.
568
:John: All the time.
569
:Springer: I think for the most
part, it's, and it happens like
570
:when we're brainstorming, right?
571
:And, uh, you know, we go down the rabbit
hole of, hey, that, that sounds funny.
572
:And then it's like, oh, wait, you
know, like, someone will check us our
573
:marketing team, our diversity team,
um, you know, a number of different
574
:points throughout the process.
575
:It's like, yo, this just
doesn't, you know, This doesn't
576
:feel like I'm like, Oh, yeah.
577
:Okay.
578
:You're right.
579
:John: So even though you've got that
really strong, really powerful North
580
:star that's pulling everything in the
right direction, you still have stuff
581
:that strays and you gotta it Correct.
582
:Springer: Absolutely.
583
:Uh, I mean, some you're, you're human.
584
:as much as you can preach,
say, Oh, yeah, I'm authentic.
585
:And actually, like, when you said
that, I wasn't even thinking that
586
:I was like, man, this is great.
587
:Great therapy session.
588
:Um, just picking up on it.
589
:People make mistakes and as long
as you learn and you can pivot and
590
:you know, you're adaptable, great.
591
:Like, that's fine.
592
:Um, I will.
593
:John: You hear that Brian?
594
:People make mistakes.
595
:Brian: I don't know.
596
:I don't know.
597
:I don't know.
598
:Absolutely.
599
:John: duo that kind of reminds Brian all
the time that, uh, people make mistakes.
600
:That would be when I make mistakes.
601
:Springer: Well shit happens, you know,
you can't control it, it's just how
602
:you deal with it at the end of the day.
603
:Brian: Absolutely.
604
:Can you talk about how you, um,
work with your peers inside REI?
605
:Is, uh, are you working with an
inside media team as well as,
606
:you know, the marketing team?
607
:Like how, how do you guys kind
of work internally to, you
608
:know, bring everything together?
609
:Springer: Yep, we have media, managers,
um, they work with a, a media, a company,
610
:and yeah, we work, um, pretty closely
with them to try to figure out what
611
:campaigns are designed to do what,
what channels will have the best reach.
612
:and then they go and work their
magic to figure out the money and
613
:how that all that works and how
that can potentially come to life.
614
:And yeah, we, it's that nice compromise
and that nice balance of how, and
615
:where the concept can come to life all
616
:Brian: Yeah.
617
:I'm sure there's a little like chicken or
the egg on the, You might have a different
618
:kind of cut or format or, you know,
619
:Springer: I mean, do you fully have
everything baked from the media plan
620
:of this is what we need and you go and
execute or do you leave some space and
621
:some room for the concept to be able
to, you know, help facilitate or dictate
622
:what some of the placements might be?
623
:Again, yeah, chicken and egg.
624
:John: Do you get pretty good, uh, data
on, you know, either from the media
625
:team, in terms of performance and
stuff, but what about in terms of like
626
:brand metrics, you know, you mentioned
this is a, this is a new brand platform,
627
:how do you know whether this is
resonating other than randoms reach
628
:out to you on LinkedIn and say,
well, you'd be on our podcast.
629
:How do you know that it's working?
630
:Springer: I mean, I don't know
what a better metric than that is.
631
:John: All right.
632
:So you can success.
633
:Springer: I, uh, yeah, no, we definitely
have a team that is, is monitoring our,
634
:our brand tracker or our brand score.
635
:Um, and we, we look at
that on the quarterly, um,
636
:John: And obviously it goes
beyond awareness into like specific
637
:like personality attributes
you're measuring against.
638
:Is that right?
639
:Springer: yep.
640
:I'm looking at awareness
down into consideration down
641
:into sentiment, all sorts of.
642
:Data inside of an amazing PowerPoint, but
they just for us feeble minded creatives.
643
:And there, we do pivot all the time, like
some of our creative of, you know, this
644
:one's performing stronger than others.
645
:John: And I know you've only, only
been there two years, so you know,
646
:you don't have the longest track
record, but do you see, have you seen a
647
:correlation between when brand metrics
are kind of bumping and increasing?
648
:Does that correlate to sales increases
or kind of hard to know just yet?
649
:Springer: haven't seen that quite yet.
650
:Um, it's, it's something that we're,
we're trying to get better at.
651
:What I would say, um, again, just
to also demonstrate the power and
652
:the value of brand versus power
and value of new shoe, new tent.
653
:Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little
bit of, of, of both right now.
654
:Cause I think we need
to educate internally.
655
:Um, and we also need to figure out how and
why we're doing more and more brand stuff
656
:or more and more product focused stuff.
657
:But, uh, that's something
in our future for sure.
658
:Brian: I want to talk a little
bit about what you've mentioned a
659
:couple of times about using film.
660
:Can you, can you give people a little
bit of an understanding on, you know,
661
:making the decision to, to use film,
which I think is absolutely fantastic,
662
:but how does that impact a shoot?
663
:What changes have to be made
based off of making that decision?
664
:And, um, and what, what is
that like for everybody?
665
:Springer: It's scary.
666
:There's a reason why we, you know,
the industry kind of went away from
667
:film and this isn't the whole reason.
668
:Like I would say, like,
there's just an ease factor.
669
:It's just, you don't have to carry
around canisters and canisters of film.
670
:The cameras are much smaller and
easier to You know, find and utilize,
671
:um, you know, digital cameras are,
um, you can mimic certain film
672
:attributes sometimes, sometimes.
673
:, and digital is cheaper.
674
:, and so like, why wouldn't
you just use digital?
675
:Um, How did I sell and how did we
sell in film of it's just gorgeous.
676
:It has a raw, a raw feeling.
677
:The grain, the texture.
678
:Um, there's just something that feels
kind of memory esque, um, a bit more
679
:aspirational in my mind, not as polished.
680
:It feels again, a bit more authentic.
681
:Um, even though our commercial was
very, very scripted and very produced,
682
:it's just felt real, something
that you could relate to again.
683
:Maybe it's a bit dreamy.
684
:It creates an atmosphere of depth.
685
:Uh, I don't know.
686
:There's just, I, I
could just go on and on.
687
:And I think the result of what we
got, hopefully kind of speaks for it.
688
:I mean, we're still shooting in
digital but we're starting to shoot
689
:more and more film photography as well.
690
:It is scary because you have to
trust at the end of the day as well
691
:that what you just shot for two
hours, you actually have on film.
692
:Brian: So scary just to hear you say that.
693
:Yeah.
694
:Springer: That, you know, fix
it in post isn't as easy, uh,
695
:on film as it is in digital.
696
:Like you, you have to go with it.
697
:You have to cut around stuff and,
you know, you have to work with it.
698
:And I think that's also kind of fun.
699
:Um, it kind of adds to the
rawness, the realness of.
700
:Shit, if only she'd, ah
man, how do we make it work?
701
:Um, yeah, I don't know.
702
:I think I, I will always push for film.
703
:Um, and again, huge shout out to
the directors, Damian Blue and
704
:our GP, Quinn Feldman, um, cause
they were just, monstrous on set.
705
:Um, the cameras that they brought,
we went underwater with my camera.
706
:And so we had a complete like a
hydro housing look like an atom bomb.
707
:It was dropping it into the water
and its own little submarine tank.
708
:And then we put a film
camera inside of a dryer.
709
:And we spun the dryer around, like,
We were like actively googling
710
:on the side the melting point of
film, To like, no, like, we were
711
:Brian: What is it, by the way?
712
:Springer: We were safe, but
713
:John: know, you know, there's a,
there's an air cycle, you don't need
714
:to turn the heat on those things.
715
:Springer: No, we were like in some public
laundromat and it was, there was no air.
716
:It was just like low, medium and high.
717
:They built this amazing rig and actually
ran the dryer and ran it for a few times.
718
:And again, it's one of those moments where
you're like, you're hoping you get it.
719
:They have some monitors and some
feeds, but it's like a digital feed.
720
:And so you're like, I hope.
721
:What we're getting is,
is just as beautiful.
722
:It's stressful, but I think the
end result, when you see it for
723
:the first time, you're just like,
so happy that that was why, you
724
:know, the decision you've made.
725
:John: It's really cool to hear you
talk so lovingly about, about film, you
726
:know, and now's a good time for us to
cut away to, uh, our sponsor promotion,
727
:uh, Kodak has sponsored this episode.
728
:So, uh, no, it really is cause you
know, the, your focus on the craft.
729
:You know, it is something that I think
a lot of times I associate with what you
730
:get at spending a lot of money going to,
you know, a big well staffed ad agency,
731
:the fact that you're doing it in house,
the fact that you were able to sell in
732
:the extra time and budget to get the craft
where it needs to be to reflect the brand.
733
:It is, it is really neat to hear
and, and your enthusiasm for it
734
:is really, uh, it's palpable.
735
:So thanks for sharing that.
736
:Springer: No, absolutely.
737
:I mean, again, REI took,
you know, a chance, a risk.
738
:I don't know, maybe they didn't
or, you know, hiring an agency guy.
739
:Um, I think they did that for a reason.
740
:Um, so for them to, to listen and
believe and trust, um, that we're going
741
:to get an amazing product is, is great.
742
:It's a good feeling.
743
:John: Speaking of that, , do you
get the sense that there are more
744
:creatives looking to move from agency
side to in house like you've done?
745
:Springer: Absolutely.
746
:John: There's more of that now.
747
:Springer: Yeah, I, I, the,
the agency model is, is hard.
748
:I mean, it's, it's exhausting and I
think that's one of the big things.
749
:COVID, COVID was a great wake
up, um, because we don't have to
750
:go into the office and actually
stay in the office all day.
751
:We can work from home and that gave
us a, a bit more yearning to not
752
:want to have to work from home.
753
:So damn much.
754
:And I can't speak for the entire industry.
755
:And I, there's still people
that love the hustle.
756
:I ultimately, sometimes I
still yearn for that myself.
757
:Um, but not on a daily
basis, not on a weekly basis.
758
:Um, rarely a monthly basis, but I, I
think that that shift, and if you're
759
:able to find a place that has already
a solid in house team, yeah, why not?
760
:Like hustle, make it, you know, you can,
you can still hop around if you need to.
761
:You can still work on
different brands, right?
762
:So I, I, I see that that trend just going
to continue, if not exponentially more.
763
:That's my POE.
764
:That's, sorry.
765
:Brian: for me.
766
:what, what sort of ways did you take your,
your larger commercial and kind of break
767
:it down into other pieces of content?
768
:Like, how have you been able
to use that That commercial to
769
:distribute that in other ways,
770
:Springer: a good question.
771
:Um, I mean, we, we do a lot of
social short, we shot a lot and
772
:that one spot was part of, I think,
six other spots that we shot.
773
:Um, different times, time durations.
774
:I mean, from that 30, I think we
got a 15, a 10, a six, and we've
775
:got some still assets from it.
776
:Um, the overall branding as well.
777
:Everything that we used in there
was used across our entire system.
778
:And I think just the again, the locations
that we shot at, we also for film,
779
:um, the video we also shot and stills.
780
:Um, so just looking at efficiencies across
the board for the production itself,
781
:John: You got a lot of great
stuff from that campaign.
782
:What's next before we let you go?
783
:What's next for REI?
784
:What are we going to
see from you guys next?
785
:Springer: just the next
chapter of that opt outside.
786
:I mean, that was our launch of just
reintroducing it back into the world of
787
:saying, Hey, um, you can make a cognizant
choice to break some of this autopilot.
788
:And we're just going to take it and
continue to expand upon that narrative.
789
:John: We look forward to seeing it unfold
and, uh, and seeing your career progress.
790
:We really appreciate you joining us.
791
:It's been a great talking to you.
792
:Springer: Thank you, Brian.
793
:Thank you, John.
794
:Brian: Can't wait to see what's next.
795
:John: Yeah.
796
:Yeah.
797
:Keep us outside.
798
:Springer: Absolutely.
799
:Brian: John, that was a great interview.
800
:It's always nice talking to, um, the
people that are really connected into, um,
801
:into the, into the brands they worked for.
802
:And, Springer, um, you know,
he's just really inspired by that
803
:brand and he's doing great things.
804
:John: Yeah.
805
:So, so mellow, so chill.
806
:It's interesting how he seems to
kind of almost to me reflect a
807
:little bit of that brand, right?
808
:, He's all about simplicity
and clarity and authenticity.
809
:And I think, you know, that's one
of the things that really stands
810
:out to that, to me about that brand
is, you know, just really authentic.
811
:No matter what you see, it just is
really about enjoying the outside.
812
:Hmm.
813
:Great
814
:Brian: You know, a lot of times
when you, you hear about creating
815
:efficiency by bringing a lot of
these, um, creative people in house.
816
:, it usually means that they're gonna, you
know, just be not take as many chances.
817
:And, uh, And they're
really swinging for it.
818
:I love that they're using film.
819
:I love that they're, um, really
digging into this, opt outside
820
:identity and really weaving it into
the stories that they're telling.
821
:And, um, so I, it's a, it's a great story.
822
:John: Yeah, it really is a great point
about that, about that team not taking
823
:the easy path, but you know, getting
outside their lane and getting outside,
824
:Brian: Yeah.
825
:Inspiring to see that, you know, you
can still, achieve what creative
826
:people want to do at an agency,
you know, with, uh, with a brand.
827
:So, um, that's a good story
for a lot of people to hear.
828
:John: you know, probably easier for them
because hearing him talk, it does seem
829
:like they have all bought in, right?
830
:They truly do enjoy what
the brand stands for,.
831
:Yeah.
832
:Brian: Absolutely.
833
:John: All right.
834
:Well, speaking about caring, uh,
Brian, I care very much that we
835
:got this podcast done and that
we've got another one lined up.
836
:Brian: I'm glad we still
remember how to do it.
837
:Well, you know, for our listeners,
stay tuned for another great episode
838
:coming up in the next couple of weeks.
839
:As always, if you enjoy the episode,
make sure to share it on social.
840
:You know, tell your friends
841
:John: Tell your friends.
842
:Hell, tell your enemies.
843
:We don't care.
844
:Tell anybody.
845
:Brian: Matthew McConaughey.
846
:John: Tell Matthew McConaughey.
847
:All right, man.
848
:See you later.
849
:Brian: All right.
850
:See ya.
