Episode 13

full
Published on:

19th Apr 2024

Cruisin’ Through a Crisis: Xpertainment CEO Gordon Ho

All aboard for some harrowing tales from the early days of Covid. Gordon Ho, a marketing whiz and crisis communication pro, shares stories of critical decisions made during a time of utter crisis. When the Diamond Princess cruise ship was stuck in Yokohoma Japan during one of the earliest outbreaks of COVID 19, thousands of passengers and crew were quarantined and information changed hourly. We start the voyage with some air travel, covering Boeing recent door-busting crisis. But don’t worry, John and Brian keep things light, covering Gordon’s career highlights, like scouting out a chocolate program and getting a generation of kids hooked on disappearing Disney classics. Brian seeks an oracle for a future Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:27): Reviewing Boeing’s current crisis

(03:12): Snap Decision: Did Boeing handle it OK…and how soon is too soon?

(06:32): Lightning Round: which corporate PR crisis was a better nightmare scenario?

(09:06): Meet Gordon Ho

(16:44): Terror at sea: early Covid strikes the Diamond Princess cruise ship

(39:42): Before Covid…the greatest job in the world

(47:28): Growing a market through scarcity at Disney

(51:49): Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background content

What's going on with Boeing planes? - Mashable

Chronology of COVID-19 Cases on the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship and Ethical Considerations: A Report From Japan - National Library of Medicine

27 Days in Tokyo Bay - Wired

Jan Swartz: Steering Princess Cruises Through the COVID-19 Crisis - Harvard Business Review (for purchase)

www.xpertainment.com - Gordon Ho's website

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Transcript
John:

Well, good morning, Brian.

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Morning, John.

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How are you?

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I am, the sun is shining, the

birds are singing, and I am happy.

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I like to hear that.

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I like to hear that.

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It's beautiful out.

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Yes.

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The weather is beautiful.

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And, I think it sets the stage

nicely for talking about,

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things going wrong and crisis.

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Oh gosh.

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The theme of today's episode.

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Yikes.

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How's that for a kickoff?

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Yeah.

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Let's get into it.

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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I don't think there's a bigger

corporate crisis we could talk

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about right now, more than Boeing.

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Correct..

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Yeah.

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So obviously no stranger to, um,

crisis the last couple of years.

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It really came to a head in January.

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When one of their planes with Alaska

airlines, a Boeing max nine was forced

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to make an emergency landing after a door

plug fell off a few minutes after takeoff.

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And the images of that were just shocking.

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Shocking.

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And everywhere.

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Yeah, that's the thing with video is

that, uh, you know, if that didn't

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have the accompanying video, uh,

it wouldn't probably be anywhere

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near as much noise as it is.

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So that incident, sent shockwaves

to millions of travelers.

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sent off a ton of red flags with

regulators and, and their partners.

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And,, Boeing's trust has

probably never been lower than

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it is right now with the public.

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Like I mentioned this is far from

the first issue with a Boeing max

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plane in the last few years, in 2018

and:

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uh, 346 people died in plane crashes.

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So there's been a lot of, attention

on Boeing, to fix a lot of issues

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with their planes and this latest

incident in January, is not making

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this go away for them . After their,

planes were grounded by the FAA.

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they found the door plug was missing

four bolts that fell off and a number

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of other planes, were showing that

bolts were loosened and, not tightened.

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And, so they've been going

through an auditing and inspection

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process with all their planes.

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And then, you know, more recently in

March, there's been some significant

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executive changes there as well.

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One of the things that they've been

trying to do is present a series of

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steps to provide transparency and,

and, and show that they're taking

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some accountability as a company.

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Mm-Hmm.

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, on their website specifically, you

know, they're pushing people to a,

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a microsite section that, Has all

the information on the incident.

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There's a four minute video of their

ceo addressing employees at a team town

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hall about the importance of safety,

importance of getting this moment, right?

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And how they'll handle it as a company.

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and they also have a detailed timeline

of statements and media clips responding

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to reports, action plans and other

relevant news surrounding this crisis.

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. So they're trying to, to get out there

and take accountability for the situation.

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and not shy away from the public.

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But, as we all know, it's, an

extremely long road for a company

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like that, if they can ever gain back

trust, especially in a situation where

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people's lives are at stake and, people

have died as a result of their actions

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and, there's been a lot of safety

concerns the last few years in general,

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and this certainly doesn't help that.

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So John, my question and snap decision for

you, or, you know, what are your thoughts

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on how Boeing has handled this situation?

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And what is the mindset that needs to

be instilled in communication teams

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and marketers in situations like these?

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If you're working for that

company and you're a marketer or a

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communications person, when is the,

the, when's the timing right to

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get back to promoting your company?

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Well, that last part's tricky.

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The first part about how Boeing

handled it, I think they've

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done some things really well.

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Yeah, I think it was great.

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Like you mentioned that they

released an internal video, you know,

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things the CEO is saying to the

employee base right after the accident.

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I think that's, that's great.

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kind of shows a little

bit of transparency.

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Yes, they took some accountability.

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I don't feel like they announced a

whole lot of concrete steps, like

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things that they're going to do.

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And they talked about, you know,

how safety needs to become a greater

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priority, but I don't think they

really outlined an action plan quickly.

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good that the CEO, , has stepped down,

That's, I think an important step to

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indicate that you're going to change

the culture of the company, because

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frankly, in the wake of this most recent

thing, there's been an increasing, bit

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of, volume around the idea that perhaps

Boeing has sacrificed safety over

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share price for a bunch of years now.

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Ironic, because the share price for

the past five years has declined.

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Not done particularly well, so it

hasn't worked, but, you know, the

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CEO and the CEO before him, I believe

focused on cost cutting hasn't

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really led to, great stock results.

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And at the same time, it seems

like safety's taken a big hit.

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So, yeah, they had to make that big change

in terms of when it's good to get back.

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Look, the trust is huge and

it's hard to measure that.

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I know there are.

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Trust indices out there.

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I think there are a few

things that have to happen.

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One, you need to have some very

clear,, steps that you've communicated.

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I think you need to start

to see those steps be.

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Reflected back to you where other

people are repeating the steps

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that you're taking to fix things.

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so obviously there's, you know, the

standard social media monitoring.

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You do the PR monitoring.

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1 thing that struck me was,

have you seen the kayak?

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The travel site and app

they had previously had.

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filter where you could look

at your flights and you could

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filter out types of aircraft.

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Like if you don't want to fly a,

uh, an Airbus or a, a 737 Max, you

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could, you could select those out.

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They've moved that up.

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Since they moved that up

higher in the navigation.

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So have you seen that tool?

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No, I have not.

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It's pretty wild.

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So that will be an indicator to me,

like over time, if fewer people are

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opting out of flying your plane that

had an incident, maybe that shows that

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people have either kind of, you know,

regained some trust or forgotten.

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Frankly, that happens all the time, right?

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People forget stuff.

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Yeah.

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So I think that's, those are the kinds of

things they've got to pay attention to.

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They've got to see that the public is

starting to show indicators of buying

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into whatever the very specific and

transparent plan they've put out there is.

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Yeah.

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It's a, it's going to be a long road.

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I did see in the news, recently

that, their defense system that they

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were partnering with Israel on, uh,

helped defend against the attack

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from Iran, which, it doesn't support

the commercial airline business,

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but it does, put some good news in

Boeing's hands for the land itself,.

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So, that is probably something that

would make sense to promote, but not,

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not be a direct hit on the commercial

airline business, which would You

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know, clearly they're nowhere near

ready to, you know, be talking about

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good things that they're doing.

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I was looking at a bunch of corporate

crises, you know, PR issues,

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over the past 20 years or so.

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and it is interesting how quickly

I've forgotten some of them.

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Yeah.

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Uh, I have a, I have a, uh, snap

decision lightning round for you.

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All right.

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All right.

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So the question to you, Brian,

is which of these two PR crises.

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Would you have preferred to handle?

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They're all PR nightmares.

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Okay.

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I'm gonna start with a couple

that kind of unfolded on YouTube.

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One, the Comcast technician who

fell asleep on a customer's couch

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while waiting on hold for his own

company to answer his phone call.

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Or the Domino's pizza scandal in

:

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a very disturbing video of them

tampering with a customer's food.

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So which of those, which of those would

have been a bigger nightmare to handle?

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I think I'm going with the

Comcast on the couch guy.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to be thinking about

what happened with the pizza dough

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while I'm eating the product.

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So wait, you'd rather handle

the Comcast ignition guy?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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You'd rather handle that one.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Which one would you rather

handle between these two?

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The BP oil spill in 2010, following the

Deepwater Horizon oil rig, uh, explosion.

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Yeah.

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or the Volkswagen diesel gate emissions

scandal in:

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having cheat software in its, in its

cars, that led to a really big recall

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and 4 billion in penalties eventually.

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Which would you have rather handled?

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I think I'd rather handle the VW one.

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the oil one.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that was just, you remember

like the oil wouldn't stop for like.

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I didn't fully remember.

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I knew it was a while, but it poured

in for three months to your point.

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I mean, there was just like,

there was no stopping it.

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And the amount of damage that did to

the planet is probably so significant.

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We can't even think about it, but I

would not want to be in or near that one.

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Yeah, and 11 people died,

which I didn't remember that.

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Oh, I didn't remember that.

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Yeah, 11 people died.

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and yeah, the, the, just the images coming

out of that just didn't stop for a while.

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So yeah, I, I'm with you on that one.

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all right.

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Would you have rather handled the Samsung

Note seven battery issues in:

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where phones just kept catching fire or

when United Airlines overbooked a flight

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and called her in a security guard to

drag an elderly doctor off the plane?

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Ooh.

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I would probably choose the,

the airlines scandal because.

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It's mostly a singular incident,

whereas the phone's blowing

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up could affect more people.

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I mean, there's no, there's no Yeah, okay.

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, pick the less, more terrible one.

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Exactly.

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Alright, well, speaking of that,

all of them, in my mind, pale

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to a PR crisis that faced, , the

guest we're going to turn to now.

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Oh, can't wait.

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ALL: Alright, so Brian, I am really

happy to introduce an old friend,

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a guy I met when we were serving

on a nonprofit board together,

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John: Gordon Ho.

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Today, he is CEO of a strategy

consulting firm, Expertainment, and he

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also serves as an adjunct professor at

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both Georgetown and USC, where

he teaches marketing, crisis

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strategy, and product management.

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We're going to talk to him about

that crisis strategy piece a bit.

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he's worked at and advised

for several tech startups.

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He's also worked for some really big

brands, Disney and Princess Cruises.

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At Disney Studios, he oversaw the

3 billion, billion with a B, direct

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to video category, including digital

and DVD slash Blu ray business.

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As well as Disney's movie

rewards loyalty program.

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More recently, he was CMO and head of

sales at Princess Cruises, where he

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launched the Discovery at Sea partnership,

and the Ocean Medallion launch, which

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was considered the number one travel

Internet of Things wearable device.

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And the reason we want to talk to him

today is he was responsible for one

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of the most challenging, corporate

communications issues I can imagine

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during the Diamond Princess COVID crisis.,

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Gordon's on the board of, the Coalition

of Asian Pacifics and Entertainment

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and, on the board of the Ronald

McDonald House of Southern California.

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He is super smart, he's really

fun, and he is, Brian, one of the

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nicest people you'll ever meet.

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Please say hi to Gordon Ho

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.

ALL: Well, thank you, John, for that intro.

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I'm flattered and happy to be here.

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Well, we are thrilled you're here.

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Sorry, it was a little long, but you've

got a, you've got a long resume, pal.

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so Brian, I've been talking about, um,

corporate crises and how marketers and

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communicators can prepare themselves

and respond when something goes wrong.

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, in particular, we were talking about

how Boeing, , has been facing an

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awful lot of struggles recently.

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There've been, some people have

kind of congratulated them for the

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way they've handled the crisis.

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Others have come out really

strongly against them.

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How would you suggest Boeing respond

to recent events, or how they should

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respond to what's been going on with them?

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Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

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I think you have to go back in

history a little bit on Boeing

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because, you know, this, this all

stemmed from a lot of culture.

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I think has been a big part of it, right?

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You had Boeing, which was very engineering

technology, arguably safety focus.

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But then with the 1997 merger

with McDonnell Douglas.

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That changed, right?

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Cause you had a lot of executives

at McDonnell Douglas who

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applied and nothing wrong.

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I mean the shareholder return

affordability, but those

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principles took over the

engineering first type of culture.

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And I think you hear when you

talk to a lot of people at Boeing

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people in engineering, There is

this sense that, hey, I'm afraid

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to speak up because of retaliation.

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And you also had this

symbolic thing, right?

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You had Boeing move their

headquarters to Chicago away from

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Seattle where the engineers were.

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So that's a sentiment of like,

okay, what are you prioritizing?

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And of course, the big thing

that happened in 18 and 19

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were the two 737 MAX 8 crashes.

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And one could arguably, they prioritized

profits over safety because they

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did not tell people about the new

features that were on the plane.

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They said, Hey, this is

just like the other 737 Max.

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Just a few things that you

don't have to worry about.

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Well, the fact is you had to

worry about it and they didn't.

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And one of the things they set

forth was that there is no new

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simulator training that is needed.

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And that drove a lot of what they,

I guess narrow minded focus, which

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of course led to pilots maybe not

being exposed to the training and

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features that they should have been.

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In this case, where you have this, door

plug blowout, one could, I think they're

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still looking at it, but I think the

fact is there could be some of the same

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thing, which is, In a focus to get out

and catch up maybe from some of the

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lost sails as a result of what happened

in '18-19', they may have prioritized

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schedules and delivery of, jets and planes

over the prioritization of safety checks.

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And the report from the FAA just came

out that seemed to say, hey, look at,

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and this was the, this was the study

that started in 20 as a result of the

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plane crashes, and they concluded.

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Number one, there is still this fear

of retaliation, if you speak up.

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Number two, the safety procedures

change so frequently, it's

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hard for the people to keep up,

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so I think there's the conclusion that

Boeing has a lot of work to do still,

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and hopefully they're on that mend.

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To your question about what they've

done to date, the fact that Calhoun,

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the CEO resigned, I think was an

important symbolic gesture that

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you have new management coming in.

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If you remember Calhoun was the chairman

of the board when the two plane crashes

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and all the fatalities happened.

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So that was a lot of people

say, wait a minute, that seems

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like a continuity of management.

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But now of course he's gone.

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So I think a lot of the continuity

that happened in 18, 19, at least

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symbolically with Calhoun leaving.

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That is maybe a change in direction.

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Let's hope.

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and we'll see what,

what else they recover.

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and it's hard because you

have a duopoly, right?

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With Boeing and Airbus.

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And so when Airbus says, Hey, we have a

new lighter, faster fuel efficient plane.

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There is this huge pressure

for Boeing to react.

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That's what happened with

the Boeing seven 37 max.

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And it seems like maybe just maybe that.

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They went too fast, and you're

seeing this ongoing repercussions.

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Yeah, I think the thing that struck

me, in looking at some of the, some

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of the reporting was exactly one of

the things you highlighted, this idea

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that, When they came out with that

new plane, there was a pretty strong

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insistence from Boeing that pilots didn't

need to turn themselves with a new,

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a new system and do that simulation.

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And, and, and that's the one that

really struck me is like, it seemed

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like they were trying to just.

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Sell units and, really not

focused on the safety piece.

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So that's struck out and John, and

John specifically to build on that

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there, one of the biggest customers

was Southwest airlines Southwest said,

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look it, we don't want our pilots to

have to go through simulator training.

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So to make that sale,

they committed to it.

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So that was a customer commitment.

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And they actually said, if you require

additional training, we will pay you.

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I think it was a million

dollars per plane.

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So that was the discussion

throughout Boeing.

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We are not going to pay that.

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There is no training even, and that's,

and that, that what's happened in

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blinds you, because that becomes the

edict, that's governing your decisions.

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So, so how do you, as a marketer

or, , a communications person, how

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do you handle yourself in a situation

like that and, and how do you make a

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recommendations to leadership teams

that clearly have made mistakes?

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If you don't have a culture of

allowing people to speak up, having

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management that's supportive, right?

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Instead of managers saying,

you're making me look bad.

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How does it that when you complain,

the manager says you're making me look

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good because you're one of the people

that identified something that's hard.

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And so I think culture is a huge

part of what has to, and that

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takes time and that's set forth

by management, their actions.

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Right.

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And I think that's what has to happen.

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Yeah.

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That culture piece is huge and it is hard.

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Cause even public company or not, just,

you know, a lot of times the CEO is

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getting a fairly whitewashed version

of what's happening in an organization.

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People, even if the culture

is somewhat open to it.

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People are pretty resistant to give the,

the top person, uh, bad news sometimes.

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And then, and then you maybe say,

okay, well, maybe the, maybe you

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have a chief risk officer or whatever

that reports right into the board.

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Maybe co reports into the board and

CEO so that there's an independent

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board director who can actually have

these comfortable conversations, right?

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Separate from the CEO, right?

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There's all sorts of things that you can

try to do to try to quote unquote, protect

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the The team that is bringing up issues.

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Yeah, it has to be real, right?

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Yeah.

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So this is where you have more

and more companies setting up a

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separate risk committee on their

board to deal with these issues and

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to have them directly responsible.

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Chief risk officer is duly reporting

or directly reporting into them.

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There's a number of things that

you can do to try to make it

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easier to have things come out.

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All right, Gordon, can you take

us through the crisis that you and

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princess cruises faced back in February

and March of:

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princess cruise ship was stuck in, I

believe Yokohama, Japan with thousands

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of passengers and crew quarantined due

to a very early outbreak of COVID 19.

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Right.

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can you kind of take us through that?

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Yeah.

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And then obviously it's, there's a,

there's many elements to it, but let

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me at least set up the framework for

the, the listeners, which is, you

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know, on January 20th, our diamond

princess ship was leaving for a cruise

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from Japan or Yokohama, a passenger

from Hong Kong boarded the ship

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with everybody else on January 20th.

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They then got off the ship

on January 25th in Hong Kong.

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And didn't come back on the ship.

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And then we found out on February

1st, that that passenger who

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just embarked tested positive.

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We then immediately notified

the Japanese ministry of health.

370

:

And we rushed back to Japan and we

proceeded to test a sample of passengers

371

:

and unfortunately, 10 tested positive

that then led to the decision by

372

:

the Japanese Ministry of Health.

373

:

We're going to have you in quarantine.

374

:

So the decision was made is that

our ship in the past, all the

375

:

passengers, guests and crew would

be put in quarantine for two weeks,

376

:

which was the understood duration,

if you will, of coronavirus or COVID.

377

:

And that was the crisis.

378

:

Suddenly we are trying to manage

the logistics, communications,

379

:

?

And ultimately partnering with all Japanese Ministry of Health and

380

:

other health organizations to get

through this quarantine, right?

381

:

Our cruise ship is made for vacations.

382

:

It's not necessarily

designed for quarantine.

383

:

And so think about the elements

that we had to suddenly figure out.

384

:

And you had to do it in

a very, very public way.

385

:

You were the center of the storm in

terms of media coverage for, Oh yeah,

386

:

you're, you're absolutely right.

387

:

We were the front page headline

news for, for a long time.

388

:

And part of it is because if you think

about all the people on the ship, we had

389

:

Americans, Canadians, Australians, right?

390

:

We had people from,

Many, many nationalities.

391

:

And for, unfortunately for those

countries, that was the first time

392

:

that someone from their country

was known to have coronavirus.

393

:

So in terms of Americans, we had

several hundred Americans, right?

394

:

And this, or when this started,

there was no known cases of

395

:

Corona virus or COVID in America.

396

:

Now it is since been proven

that there were cases we

397

:

just didn't know at the time.

398

:

So suddenly cruising became front and

center for Corona virus and princess

399

:

cruises and our diamond princess ship

was the pinnacle of the press coverage.

400

:

And of course, as you know, from a

communications PR standpoint, the media.

401

:

You know, and I, and I, as part

of my teaching, I tell the class,

402

:

look at for good or for bad, the

media is compensated by flicks.

403

:

They're trying to write

click bait headlines.

404

:

What click bait headline is

going to get more clicks, right?

405

:

Something like disaster and sickness

at sea, or Princess Cruises doing a

406

:

pretty good job of managing the crisis.

407

:

Which, which one's gonna get more clicks?

408

:

I don't oversee that headline.

409

:

Yeah, but you had, you had, you

had so many different, headlines.

410

:

And that's because that's

what got the clicks.

411

:

And so there's no way you could have

done it where everyone would have been.

412

:

Oh, great job.

413

:

Cause no one knew what

the hell was going on.

414

:

No, I think that was part of the thing.

415

:

One of the, so when you think about a,

we were probably more prepared than,

416

:

than most, Because number one in, in,

in the crisis management course, that

417

:

we have at USC that I teach the first

thing and Ninety percent of crisis

418

:

management is the preparation, right?

419

:

So the three-part framework is

prepare, manage and recover.

420

:

So, and a lot of people jump

to the manage, but you, your

421

:

ability to manage really is, is

tied to how well you prepare.

422

:

So, for example, we have designated

crisis teams pre-assigned People

423

:

know who is accountable for

what we do drills quarterly.

424

:

Okay.

425

:

So we, and we even drill for an outbreak.

426

:

I mean, now we didn't anticipate

coronavirus, but we've drilled

427

:

for things that like a norovirus,

which is a stomach type flu.

428

:

We do practice for that.

429

:

We practice for hurricanes.

430

:

We practice for anything,

a mechanical malfunction.

431

:

All right.

432

:

So that's something

433

:

.

And then we monitor, we knew about coronavirus because

434

:

we have offices in Japan.

435

:

We have offices in Shanghai, Taiwan.

436

:

And all of them were telling

us, Hey, this is a big deal.

437

:

So we were on high alert already.,

and when this hit, we stood

438

:

up the teams, right, we, we,

we stood up a team in Japan.

439

:

We stood up a team in our

headquarters in Santa Clarita.

440

:

We actually flew out our, one

of our senior executives who ran

441

:

international Tony Kaufman to

fly out to Japan, to oversee.

442

:

The crisis management efforts in market.

443

:

And of course we had a

crisis team on the ship.

444

:

The captain of course is

in charge of the ship.

445

:

And then of course we had

various leaders in Santa Clarita

446

:

managing various components.

447

:

And so I would say that this was

kind of a multifunction management

448

:

of which you could break it

down to maybe three key things.

449

:

One, well, the first thing

is just the priority.

450

:

The priority was pretty easy.

451

:

The safety and health

of everybody on board.

452

:

Every decision that was made was made

with that principle in mind, which

453

:

made it easier because if somebody

at a different, at various levels of

454

:

the company, if they had to make a

decision, they made a decision that this

455

:

is going to make things safer, right?

456

:

Or more comfortable for

our crew or passengers.

457

:

And that allows you to make decisions.

458

:

Sorry to interrupt you Gordon.

459

:

Can you give us a quick example of one of

those decisions that took place that where

460

:

you kind of had to weigh the trade off.

461

:

, of.

462

:

This versus that Right right off the

bat, you know, we knew hey these a lot

463

:

of these people have prescriptions.

464

:

Think about it How much medicine

do you bring on a vacation?

465

:

Enough for the vacation, right?

466

:

What happens if you have to

spend two more weeks unplanned

467

:

on your vacation in quarantine?

468

:

You're going to run out of medicine.

469

:

So immediately the teams that local

doctor says, Hey, we have an issue here.

470

:

We're going to have to start coordinating

with the Japanese ministry of health.

471

:

All of these medications, which are

in different languages, think about

472

:

the logistics of that guys, right?

473

:

You got all these prescriptions

and different languages in dosages

474

:

that may be metric or non metric.

475

:

And you have the Japanese, working

with the Japanese Ministry of Health to

476

:

figure those medicines out in Japanese,

figure out the right dosage, convert

477

:

it, get the medicines it was quite

the logistical complex effort, but the

478

:

teams rose to the occasion, but that's

example that you just have to do it,

479

:

another example is the fact that we

didn't know a lot about the disease.

480

:

So all of us stepped up to try to

figure out, okay, what do we know?

481

:

How can we learn more?

482

:

For example, in my case, I

actually, this is my wife.

483

:

My wife reminded me, Gordon,

don't, don't remember.

484

:

There's a gentleman who

is a friend of ours.

485

:

Didn't he work with the WHO?

486

:

So we called him up and sure

enough, he put me in touch with the

487

:

director of communications at the

WHO, the world health organization.

488

:

So I gave her a call and

I'm on the phone with her.

489

:

Next thing she knows, she puts me

on the phone with the director.

490

:

of immunology who's overseeing

the WHO's efforts on coronavirus.

491

:

So then I proceed to get our chief

medical officer on the phone, right?

492

:

Because this is above my pay grade, trying

to discuss, like, solutions for the virus.

493

:

But she is literally telling us in real

time what the WHO knows about the virus.

494

:

For example, that hand

gel kills the virus.

495

:

I don't know if you know this, but hand

gel or alcohol does not kill norovirus.

496

:

It's useless.

497

:

But it works against coronavirus.

498

:

So these are new things we're

learning real time, right?

499

:

From the director at the

WHO about things to do.

500

:

So you literally have to step

up and figure, who do we know?

501

:

Who can help us out?

502

:

And I'll give you another

example is your customers.

503

:

You might think, okay, in a crisis,

you're trying to manage the story, right?

504

:

A lot of people talk about, oh,

we got to control the narrative.

505

:

It's really hard to control a narrative

when every single person on that

506

:

ship has a smartphone documenting any

announcement, any piece of communication.

507

:

And you know what they're doing?

508

:

You know what's happening to them?

509

:

CNN, CNBC, Fox News, ABC, whenever

they see a tweet, Or Facebook posts

510

:

from any of our passengers they reach

out to them say hey, this is CNN

511

:

We'd like to talk to you in an hour.

512

:

Are you available?

513

:

And they're doing literally live

interviews from the ship The idea that

514

:

you can manage the narrative when you

have real time interviews with the

515

:

people on board, not going to happen.

516

:

So it's better instead

to solve the problem.

517

:

In today's modern crisis management,

it's not about, certainly you

518

:

don't ignore the narrative.

519

:

focus is solve the problem.

520

:

Like you said, You know, your number one

thing is to try to keep everybody safe.

521

:

That's there.

522

:

And if you, if you do things

that help in that direction,

523

:

then the narrative will be right.

524

:

,

Brian, you bring up to build on that, right?

525

:

Because does the media want to

hear what princess is doing?

526

:

That's good.

527

:

Yeah, I'll take it.

528

:

But for more often than not, they want to

know sensationalistic what's going wrong.

529

:

Right.

530

:

Cause that's just more clickbait.

531

:

Unfortunately, I hate to say it.

532

:

Mayhem is just more riveting

for viewers for whatever reason.

533

:

It's terrible, but it's true.

534

:

So if we can't get our perspective

out Because they're more focused on

535

:

certain sensationalistic elements.

536

:

By treating and solving the problem,

you let your guests tell the story.

537

:

So I'll give you an example.

538

:

During these interviews, a common question

would be, Hey John and Brian, you're never

539

:

going to go on a cruise again, are you?

540

:

9 said, we're already booked

on our next princess cruise.

541

:

Wow.

542

:

Really?

543

:

And then they'll say

while they're quarantined.

544

:

While they're in quarantine.

545

:

While they're quarantined.

546

:

That's amazing.

547

:

Right?

548

:

And part of it is because we gave

them all a free cruise pretty early.

549

:

We said, we're so sorry this is happening.

550

:

We're going to reimburse

you for what you paid.

551

:

And we're going to give you an equal

amount to try a future cruise with us.

552

:

They had nothing but time, so

they were all booking cruises

553

:

using the credit we gave them.

554

:

I'll give you another example.

555

:

One of the couples that were on

the ship was on a honeymoon and

556

:

they were very prolific on digital.

557

:

They, they had Reddit has

something called ask me anything.

558

:

AMA their AMA was the world's

most popular AMA of all time.

559

:

It's now number two because they

were doing real time AMA is here's

560

:

what it's like to be on this ship.

561

:

All right.

562

:

They were young.

563

:

They were a honeymoon couple.

564

:

So it was very interesting, right?

565

:

Oh my goodness.

566

:

We're so sorry.

567

:

And they happened to be

medical professionals as well.

568

:

One of them was, I reached out to

them, got ahold of them on Reddit

569

:

and said, I'm here to help you.

570

:

Let me know what things you need

or, and they happen to be very

571

:

connected to the people on the ship.

572

:

And they would tell me and the rest of

the princess team, Hey, cabin number,

573

:

you know, four 22 could use some of

this and they would provide feedback.

574

:

And so we had this real time

communication loop, which

575

:

enabled us to be more responsive.

576

:

And so when they then did an interview

with CNN or Fox news, whatever they would

577

:

say, and we're, you know, we're working

with, you know, princess executives.

578

:

Right to try to provide as much and so it

was partnership So a lot of times people

579

:

forget the people in the crisis can be

a partner with you most people want to

580

:

do well, they don't want their fellow

passengers suffering You know, beyond the

581

:

self interest, we're, we're, we care most,

you know, most people are very caring.

582

:

They want to, we're, most

people want to help others out.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

So that's another example.

585

:

That's fascinating.

586

:

I mean, just the, you know, you go on

with the mindset that anything that you

587

:

communicate to somebody on the cruise

ship, that's going to get out in the media

588

:

yeah.

589

:

. So then the question is.

590

:

You want to make sure what you issue,

you know, okay, this is like going

591

:

to get out into the press So let's be

careful about it, but you have to do it

592

:

quickly So another recommendation for

anybody going through a crisis is you

593

:

need to stand up communication teams to

write content Whether it's press release

594

:

media release stuff for your website.

595

:

We were recording Videos every day

because we had a video from the chief

596

:

medical officer, video from the chief

experience officer talking about

597

:

how we're trying to make them more

comfortable videos from our CEO, right?

598

:

We, we, we got people who didn't

necessarily do this for princess.

599

:

We then onboarded them and say,

Hey, we know you're a good writer.

600

:

Could you help us write this stuff?

601

:

We needed people around the world.

602

:

Think about social media.

603

:

We had to monitor social media boards

around the world in local languages.

604

:

But ultimately that content was key.

605

:

And the other thing I would

say is you need to have an

606

:

approval process that is quick.

607

:

So we would say like, okay, this

is going out noon every day.

608

:

We will have a draft up by 1130.

609

:

Everybody get on this shared site

and provide shared comments so we can

610

:

see it all and it will be approved.

611

:

At noon, you have the set schedule, right?

612

:

And everybody knows, all the way up

to the CEO, you have access, take

613

:

a look, otherwise it's going out.

614

:

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that,

because, you know, even in the best of

615

:

times, getting everybody to agree on

what something should be, uh, can be

616

:

difficult, but the fact that you don't

even know all the information you need

617

:

to know, and you have to constantly

communicate things, knowing that it,

618

:

it probably did change, constantly,

but being able to enable and activate.

619

:

That type of ongoing communication

is it's so key because, you know,

620

:

we've all been in situations where

you just can't get the message out

621

:

I think that's key

getting the facts was key.

622

:

And this is where establishing clear

communication with the Japanese

623

:

ministry of health was coordinating

the testing to make sure what is

624

:

the accurate number of people that

have been tested positive, right?

625

:

How many people have they been

transported off the ship, all this stuff.

626

:

This is real time information that

we tried to convey to the guests.

627

:

And this is where you can

have version creep, right?

628

:

With the, it's very possible, right?

629

:

Who has the right data.

630

:

And so you have to validate the data.

631

:

And once you confirm it, we put

it up on the website under a new

632

:

area called notices and advisories.

633

:

So that was our Bible.

634

:

And so when social media, when our

team on social media posted something,

635

:

they would always refer back.

636

:

To the notice it is my

notices and advisories page.

637

:

So we would always know we were going

back to our single source of truth.

638

:

That's an important thing that every

crisis team should think about.

639

:

Where is our single source of truth?

640

:

Let's make sure everybody internally

and externally refers to it.

641

:

And that way you won't have version creep

because that's going to make you look

642

:

bad when someone interviews you and says,

wait a minute, you've reported 22 people

643

:

were impacted and this thing says 32.

644

:

What is it?

645

:

Seems like you don't know what's going on.

646

:

Just makes you look bad.

647

:

Those two things you just mentioned

that that kind of single source of truth

648

:

and the daily publishing schedule were

those things that you had, from all of

649

:

your preparation were those in place or

were some of those real time decisions

650

:

you had to kind of put into place?

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

Yeah.

653

:

Yeah, certainly the idea of, common

goal so we can make decisions, but I do

654

:

think this rapid communication to the

passengers, I think maybe that was, we've

655

:

had done versions of it, but not to the

refinement that we had to and standing

656

:

up all these content teams and all this

stuff, because there was an, the amount

657

:

of communication we had to try to get

out because we had so many stakeholders.

658

:

Think about every embassy

reaching out to us because they

659

:

had citizens aboard the ship.

660

:

Think about that.

661

:

Then the other thing would be

regarding the notices and advisories.

662

:

Yes, that was a new section of

our website that we stood up.

663

:

I mean, we've had versions of this, but

to have to do this like couple times

664

:

every day with new information, you

know, I think that became a lifesaver

665

:

that we set up this whole thing so

that we wouldn't have version creep.

666

:

So we've had versions of it, but maybe

not to the extent that we had to create

667

:

for this And were you, were you grounding

other ships at that time or were they

668

:

still No, that's a good question.

669

:

So at the time we took

additional precautions.

670

:

So one of the things that we did is as

we were getting real time learning, we

671

:

were passing it on to the fleet, not

just the fleet, but the whole industry.

672

:

We actually wrote up certain best

practices, shared it with the industry

673

:

organization because we don't want to

compete on health and emergencies, right?

674

:

That's not good for the industry.

675

:

Right.

676

:

Right.

677

:

So for example, the prescriptions,

you know, we said, Hey guys, here's

678

:

a tip that you should tell all your

passengers bring extra medication.

679

:

. We shared that freely through the industry

channels to all the other cruise lines.

680

:

We did ground our fleet, a month later.

681

:

We were the first cruise line

to decide, you know what?

682

:

We're going to ground our whole fleet.

683

:

Then I think it was a day later, the

CDC shut down the rest of the industry.

684

:

Well, I'm sure you had a, even before

they became grounded or docked or

685

:

whatever the C term of that is.

686

:

I I'm sure you were getting flooded

with customer service questions

687

:

about whether the thing was even

going to happen or not, right?

688

:

Like you guys were, there was lift.

689

:

Yeah, there is.

690

:

There's definitely

questions about like, okay.

691

:

Cause like for diamond princess, we

had people who were booked on the

692

:

next cruise and the next cruise, and

we have to tell them, Hey guys, we're

693

:

not sailing, we're in a quarantine.

694

:

.

Certainly that had to be managed.

695

:

And I would, you know, another element

of the crisis that I'll share with you.

696

:

Well, well, even fresh air breaks, right?

697

:

You had people who are on a

cruise ship who maybe didn't

698

:

have balconies or windows.

699

:

So we had to coordinate, how

do we get them out logistically

700

:

to get out to fresh air?

701

:

I mean, even that is an impromptu

thing that we had to manage.

702

:

Like how can they do it?

703

:

How far away should they be

walking between each other?

704

:

Right.

705

:

Getting guidance from the Japanese

ministry of health, WHO and all those

706

:

partners, so I think we managed it so

well, but then the, you may have heard the

707

:

state department decided we are going to

send a military aircraft to pick up all

708

:

the Americans off the ship, because we

just think as a matter of precaution, it's

709

:

better if they serve a new quarantine.

710

:

In military bases on land in the U.

711

:

S.

712

:

So suddenly these passengers

were I think it was day 12.

713

:

They thought they're almost done

They're told the americans are

714

:

going to the military going to

pick them up Bring them to the u.

715

:

s to military bases in california

and texas nebraska And they're

716

:

going to need to serve an additional

two weeks of quarantine now.

717

:

They don't have to go It was

recommended that they go.

718

:

Yeah, most went several of those stayed

on the ship They said no, I don't want

719

:

to go But most went on the plane and

then they flew to these military bases.

720

:

So here's a question, John and Brian,

what is princesses cruises obligation to

721

:

those passengers who have now been taken

off the ship and flown to military bases?

722

:

You'd think it'd be over.

723

:

You'd think it'd be over, right?

724

:

When you fly on a flight, let's say

you fly to New York city, John, let's

725

:

say I'm going to visit you in Philly.

726

:

I take, let's say American

airlines, get off the plane.

727

:

I'm in the airport in Philly.

728

:

Is American Airlines

still accountable for me?

729

:

No way!

730

:

If I trip and fall in the airport, it's

not American Airlines fault, right?

731

:

So one could argue as soon as they left

our ship, we've, we're done with those.

732

:

Those are less people to

be worried about, right?

733

:

But when you think about it,

they haven't gotten home yet.

734

:

They're going to military bases and in the

memo written by the U S state department,

735

:

they said, we will get you to the military

bases, but it's up to you to get home.

736

:

Really?

737

:

Oh yeah.

738

:

That was in the memo.

739

:

I have to admit, I was one that noticed

that and I said to the team, I think

740

:

we need to stand up care teams to

work with the military to help take

741

:

care of our guests and get them home.

742

:

Wow.

743

:

Gordon, I'm sorry.

744

:

So one day you wake up and your job

is all about creating a fantastic,

745

:

luxurious cruise experience.

746

:

And the next day it's about how

to keep people alive, work with

747

:

state departments, militaries.

748

:

And, uh, World Health Organizations.

749

:

How did you keep it together, man?

750

:

Well, I think the whole

team did a remarkable job.

751

:

One is, you know, we had great leaders.

752

:

Jan Schwartz, who was running Princess

Cruises and really setting a good tone.

753

:

In fact, there's a Harvard

Business Case Study that talks

754

:

about how do you keep your cool.

755

:

Right?

756

:

Because the way you handle the

crisis, people can gather, right?

757

:

If you're distressed, that

echoes throughout the room.

758

:

If you're calm and collected and able to

make smart decisions, that also resonates.

759

:

So I think that's a whole nother

case that I recommend you read.

760

:

you know, we just, because we

had this common goal and we had,

761

:

everybody was supporting each other.

762

:

I will tell you a few people

found it too difficult.

763

:

They said, I need a break.

764

:

And we were, we understood it.

765

:

We're glad that they were transparent.

766

:

Because it was hard and, but we

did have just even fatigue, right?

767

:

We set up a nap, nap room nearby.

768

:

We brought in food every day.

769

:

So people were fed and we did

have different things because

770

:

when it was daytime in Japan, it

gave some relief for headquarters.

771

:

So the Japan team could manage

locally what was going on.

772

:

We would come in.

773

:

And so when the captain needed

to do a press release during

774

:

our time, we would write it.

775

:

The captain would always make an

announcement to the ship at the same time

776

:

Even if there was nothing to be said.

777

:

Yeah our job in santa clarita California

was to make sure we said here's your

778

:

announcement for the day or twice a day.

779

:

It was important to have this pattern

this sequence of regular events.

780

:

I think that helped us give us purpose.

781

:

And then we also stood up different

leaders managing different

782

:

components of the crisis.

783

:

When we decided we were going to

help the military take care of our

784

:

guests, I was the head of that team.

785

:

So I enlisted my sales team in Texas

and California to go to the military

786

:

bases and lend support there physically.

787

:

And we were on the phone.

788

:

We had daily calls with

the military bases.

789

:

I'll tell you something funny.

790

:

The passengers didn't know

where they were going.

791

:

They weren't told.

792

:

So we didn't know, nor did they, we

actually looked up on the internet,

793

:

the phone numbers of the military

bases, called them up and said,

794

:

Hey, you may have heard some of our

passengers are going to your base.

795

:

We want to help you.

796

:

Can we talk to your commanding officer?

797

:

Literally.

798

:

That's how we did it.

799

:

Wow.

800

:

And then they, and at first they

were skeptical, but then they said,

801

:

you know what, we're going to keep

your passengers safe and healthy, but

802

:

we're not very good at hospitality.

803

:

We could use your help.

804

:

And they agreed, and it

was a great partnership.

805

:

It really was a great partnership.

806

:

your own employees and staff on the

ship itself, , did any of them get sick?

807

:

Oh, yes.

808

:

I'm sure they're not prepared

to be able to manage.

809

:

People under quarantine, like,

you know, for that long, I mean,

810

:

I don't think anyone was prepared

the Japanese ministry of health.

811

:

I mean, no, one's had to do a quarantine

of this scale for decades of any.

812

:

And, so I'll, I'll say that

everyone, the crew was so courageous.

813

:

The captain called the crew, his

gladiators, because he said, look at

814

:

we're fighting a war and we're going

to win, and he actually said, you know,

815

:

diamond princess, what is a diamond?

816

:

And the diamond is, under pressure,

817

:

so he says, we're going to be a diamond.

818

:

We're under pressure, but we are

going to emerge as a diamond.

819

:

Ultimately the crew was fantastic.

820

:

You know, some of the crew, like I

mentioned, may have gotten stressed,

821

:

et cetera, it was hard for them

because they were doing all the work.

822

:

Think about room service, right?

823

:

Suddenly you have to deliver meals to

almost:

824

:

Think about the logistics of that.

825

:

Cause that's not how

meals usually are done.

826

:

People are eating meals in the

dining hall, on the pool deck

827

:

or all these different places.

828

:

But no, three, almost 3000 meals.

829

:

And then you have dietary restrictions

that you got to manage for.

830

:

Right.

831

:

So you had so many things that they

were doing, but they were amazing.

832

:

And ultimately the passengers

started to put notes outside

833

:

of their door, expressing their

appreciation for the, the, the crew.

834

:

And we actually took that as a sign

that says, Hey, we're going to To spread

835

:

the happiness, we created a hashtag,

hang in there, diamond princess.

836

:

And there was then a global movement

of support where people were

837

:

creating content, music, songs,

et cetera, for people to see.

838

:

So the crew understood how the world was

really appreciative of the hardships and

839

:

the courage that they were exhibiting.

840

:

Really is amazing.

841

:

And so much to learn from this.

842

:

I'll tell you the thing that's really

hitting me is in the face of constantly

843

:

changing information and misinformation

and chaos that you are, you were able to

844

:

create some predictability and routine.

845

:

Seems like it did an awful lot

to get through that crisis.

846

:

So cheers to you and cheers to your wife

for being smart enough to, Remind you

847

:

of your personal connection to someone

at the World Health Organization.

848

:

You want to hear from everybody.

849

:

What ideas do we have?

850

:

And I think that a leader in a crisis

needs to assimilate all the information.

851

:

And, but they have to make

that courageous decision.

852

:

That courageous decision may not be,

for example, what your legal team

853

:

advises you, I mean, I mean, this

is where I'm not telling you to break

854

:

the law, but obviously the business

affairs team may say, Hey, to reduce our

855

:

liability, maybe we shouldn't do this,

but sometimes you may say, wait, wait,

856

:

this is going to help solve the problem.

857

:

We need to do this, so those are tough.

858

:

Those are tough decisions that.

859

:

And a leader needs to

have the courage to make.

860

:

, Gordon, I remember years ago, and I think

the last time I saw you pre COVID, , it

861

:

sounded like you had the greatest job in

the world, you know, traveling all over

862

:

to build food programs with celebrity

chefs and cocktail nixologists.,

863

:

Maybe tell us about one of those

highlights, because I'd love to hear

864

:

about the shiny side of the experience.

865

:

You know, I think there's, I think

a lot of people, because most people

866

:

have never cruised before, and so this

is where a lot of cruising is really

867

:

about growing the category, because a

lot of people misunderstand cruising.

868

:

And it's just, it's a wonderful

category from a standpoint of building

869

:

amazing experiences for vacations.

870

:

And marketing them.

871

:

Right.

872

:

So I'll, you know, I'll tell you an

example of something that I think

873

:

taken from my entertainment media

days from Disney, you know, I, you

874

:

know, when you're doing marketing,

movies, whatever, you're always trying

875

:

to find that, that positioning line.

876

:

Right.

877

:

And maybe like from the creators of Lion

King comes our next big motion picture.

878

:

Right.

879

:

Right.

880

:

There's always IP.

881

:

And so when we were trying

to figure out, , how do we

882

:

reinvent maybe our entertainment?

883

:

We have broadway style shows.

884

:

We actually have kind of a big theater,

better than many broadway theaters.

885

:

And, we were thinking about what

do we do because there's other

886

:

ships that have broadway shows.

887

:

You actually have mama mia

on Royal Caribbean, right?

888

:

You have these broadway shows,

but it's expensive, right?

889

:

You got to license them.

890

:

So instead we said, look, why

don't we do borrowed equity?

891

:

Could we get somebody to work with us?

892

:

And so we were fortunate to have

gotten Stephen Schwartz, the creator of

893

:

Pippin, Godspell, and of course, Wicked.

894

:

We could say, you know, from the

creator of Wicked comes his next

895

:

great Broadway musical premiering

exclusively on Princess Cruises.

896

:

So when you think about movies

going direct to Netflix or at

897

:

Disney, I was lucky enough to

help invent, direct to video.

898

:

We now had Broadway shows from

the creator of Wicked going

899

:

direct to Princess Cruises.

900

:

Neat.

901

:

Great.

902

:

That's an example.

903

:

And that gives you a marketing hook

for people who are interested in that.

904

:

And we did also a partnership with

discovery channel where we brought

905

:

experiences, like we had the deadliest

catch tour in Alaska exclusively on

906

:

princess cruises, because we had a

partnership with discovery and their

907

:

sister division, animal planet.

908

:

So that allowed us to create

these amazing branded experiences.

909

:

Very cool.

910

:

I'm trying to imagine Brian's

reaction when I told him he just

911

:

got the job where he has to go, find

the entertainment and the desserts

912

:

and the cocktails for a cruise.

913

:

I think all over the world.

914

:

I think his head.

915

:

I mean, cocktails are big.

916

:

our cocktail mixologist, He,

created these amazing cocktails.

917

:

And a lot of them were destination theme.

918

:

Cause we always were like

to try to embrace the local

919

:

destinations that we went to.

920

:

So, our wine program, our cocktail

program, our, chocolate program,

921

:

our, our bed, we created a new bed.

922

:

We hired one of the best sleep experts

to create our Prince's luxury bed because

923

:

people go on vacation to relax and sleep.

924

:

So we wanted to make sure they

had the best sleep on vacation.

925

:

It got so popular we had to sell our beds

because people said, can I buy this thing?

926

:

That's crazy.

927

:

Who knew you had to think

of a chocolate program.

928

:

That's the news to me learning

so much today Yeah chocolate.

929

:

I mean think about chocolate, right?

930

:

If you look at our one of our core

targets of women who often help drive

931

:

the vacation That's one of the few

indulgences they give themselves is

932

:

chocolate We actually did surveys, right?

933

:

We actually asked, so I apologies

for your listeners, but we asked

934

:

women and men the same question.

935

:

Would you give up chocolate

or would you give up sex?

936

:

And you can imagine the answer.

937

:

Women were different than the

answer than what men gave.

938

:

That's because they have to

sleep with men sometimes.

939

:

So, , can you talk a little bit about

how, , technology, , transformed

940

:

that, that guest experience over

the years while you were there?

941

:

Cause I can only imagine

the types of strides that.

942

:

you were able to make and incorporate

into the, the cruise experience that

943

:

hadn't traditionally been there.

944

:

I think the biggest thing is what,

John, you mentioned earlier, the

945

:

Ocean Medallion smart wearable.

946

:

that was really advanced

and continues to be right.

947

:

You would wear it.

948

:

It would sync to the, an app on

your phone, as well as all these

949

:

various, sensors on the ship.

950

:

So we would know.

951

:

All sorts of things to personalize

our vacation experience for you.

952

:

So you could check in on the ship quicker.

953

:

You could open your, your

room with your medallion.

954

:

You could order things and

things would be delivered to you.

955

:

So you don't have to be at

the bar to order a drink.

956

:

I mean, I would say it's a bar wherever

you are, or since I'm from Wisconsin.

957

:

You know, and I come from

Milwaukee, a beer is always near.

958

:

How's that?

959

:

And, and, and I think that's one of,

these are the things where technology

960

:

and smart technology can improve

the experience because it was saving

961

:

you time and time is what you want.

962

:

That's the most precious

commodity on vacation, right?

963

:

Whether it's, I don't want to spend

10 minutes going to the bar waiting

964

:

and coming back to my, my lounge.

965

:

Not don't have to, we'll deliver

a drink to you wherever you are.

966

:

That's amazing.

967

:

Was it something that you were able

to implement pretty quickly once

968

:

it was ready, like how do you make

sure that like that is cruise ready?

969

:

Because I can imagine that, minimum

viable products, versus the full

970

:

reality is a difficult long run.

971

:

Yeah, Brian, you're right.

972

:

It took time.

973

:

I mean, it was, I would

say it was a soft rollout.

974

:

And it just gradually, because there

was clearly just like with any initial

975

:

rollout, there's going to be some,

things that aren't working perfectly.

976

:

So you have to constantly

try to refine it.

977

:

So it took time to get it to a place

where you felt, you know, every,

978

:

every month, it made a difference in

terms of how well it was operating,

979

:

meeting expectations and so forth.

980

:

so, yeah, it was quite the learning

curve because it is very advanced

981

:

in terms of that smart wearable.

982

:

So good point.

983

:

Brian and I always talk about marketing.

984

:

We love marketing and this podcast is

about how brands position themselves.

985

:

It seems like when you ask someone

about cruising, there's kind of

986

:

like two kinds of people out there.

987

:

Those who say they love cruises and

those who say they will never go on one.

988

:

Did you market?

989

:

Cruises to people who

were those kind of nevers.

990

:

And if so, how did you do it?

991

:

Yeah, John, good question.

992

:

So part of it is, you know, the

people who said, Oh, I get seasick.

993

:

And we try to educate them.

994

:

Look at what, what you experience a

seasickness rarely happens on the ship

995

:

because it's so big and all these things.

996

:

But the common thing is

just misunderstanding.

997

:

Like they said, yeah, a lot

of people were, I would do it.

998

:

I just haven't needed to because

they are just doing land vacations.

999

:

Right.

:

00:45:45,985 --> 00:45:49,705

So one of the things that we came up

with was this idea is there's cruise

:

00:45:49,705 --> 00:45:52,534

vacations that you can only do on ocean.

:

00:45:52,544 --> 00:45:53,924

You can't do it on land.

:

00:45:54,074 --> 00:45:55,784

Give me an example, Panama canal.

:

00:45:55,784 --> 00:45:59,904

If you want to go through the Panama

canal, you got to do it through a cruise.

:

00:45:59,904 --> 00:46:01,964

And it's one of the

greatest man made wonders.

:

00:46:01,964 --> 00:46:03,334

It's amazing to go through the locks.

:

00:46:03,429 --> 00:46:07,149

Alaska, really the best way to

see Alaska is through a cruise.

:

00:46:07,334 --> 00:46:07,654

Yeah.

:

00:46:07,820 --> 00:46:08,130

Right.

:

00:46:08,195 --> 00:46:12,155

And so we created with Condé Nast

Traveler what we called the seven

:

00:46:12,155 --> 00:46:13,035

cruise wonders of the world.

:

00:46:13,162 --> 00:46:13,402

Right.

:

00:46:13,402 --> 00:46:19,382

The idea that these are vacations that

pretty much exclusively are better or only

:

00:46:19,382 --> 00:46:21,302

available through an ocean based cruise.

:

00:46:21,302 --> 00:46:24,752

So people would read this article on

Condé Nast and say, oh my goodness.

:

00:46:24,842 --> 00:46:26,922

We really should do the

Panama Canal cruise.

:

00:46:26,922 --> 00:46:30,272

You've always like, you know,

you're big into engineering things.

:

00:46:30,282 --> 00:46:31,182

Let's go check it out.

:

00:46:31,192 --> 00:46:33,112

Or I'd love to see wildlife.

:

00:46:33,132 --> 00:46:34,862

Let's go on an Alaska cruise.

:

00:46:34,902 --> 00:46:35,192

Right?

:

00:46:35,252 --> 00:46:39,062

You know, those are the type of things

that we would help promote through that.

:

00:46:39,102 --> 00:46:41,322

So that's an example of us trying to grow.

:

00:46:41,347 --> 00:46:42,474

The cruise never's.

:

00:46:42,474 --> 00:46:47,034

The other thing we would do is we promoted

celebrations because John and Brian,

:

00:46:47,044 --> 00:46:50,334

you may be say, Oh, I'm indifferent, but

I haven't had a need, but let's say I

:

00:46:50,344 --> 00:46:52,794

said, you know, Hey guys, I'm retiring.

:

00:46:52,794 --> 00:46:54,824

I would like you to join me on a cruise.

:

00:46:54,844 --> 00:46:56,014

We've got a great rate.

:

00:46:56,061 --> 00:46:57,881

It's just a three day short cruise.

:

00:46:57,901 --> 00:47:01,321

Please come join me on this

great retirement, shindig.

:

00:47:01,384 --> 00:47:02,164

You might go.

:

00:47:02,214 --> 00:47:03,094

Yeah, we're in.

:

00:47:03,167 --> 00:47:03,567

We're in.

:

00:47:04,157 --> 00:47:09,194

This is where celebrations are a great

way to get newbies to come aboard, right?

:

00:47:09,194 --> 00:47:12,374

Someone's having a honeymoon

or an anniversary, a retirement

:

00:47:12,374 --> 00:47:13,461

party, whatever it is.

:

00:47:13,567 --> 00:47:21,077

Brian, I am hereby inviting you and Gordon

to take a celebratory cruise when Snap

:

00:47:21,077 --> 00:47:23,207

Decisions makes this one millionth dollar.

:

00:47:25,862 --> 00:47:27,632

We'll do a live broadcast from the ship.

:

00:47:27,872 --> 00:47:28,472

There we go..

:

00:47:28,656 --> 00:47:31,236

I'd love to hear a little bit

about your time at Disney and,

:

00:47:31,236 --> 00:47:32,496

what that experience was like.

:

00:47:32,496 --> 00:47:35,596

It seemed like the larger part of

your earlier career was from there.

:

00:47:36,006 --> 00:47:37,296

Disney was 18 years.

:

00:47:37,296 --> 00:47:38,366

It was wonderful.

:

00:47:38,451 --> 00:47:41,751

You know, I will tell many people who

asked me about like what they recommend

:

00:47:41,751 --> 00:47:44,721

in terms of careers and jobs, you know,

obviously find something you're passionate

:

00:47:44,721 --> 00:47:48,241

about, find something ideally you're

good at, but if you can find a market

:

00:47:48,241 --> 00:47:51,241

that's growing, right, there's just more

opportunities when it's growing and the

:

00:47:51,241 --> 00:47:55,581

home entertainment market was exploding

with people buying videos, buying DVDs.

:

00:47:55,581 --> 00:47:58,491

But then of course, there was a road

bump when people eventually transitioned

:

00:47:58,501 --> 00:48:00,221

from ownership to access, right?

:

00:48:00,221 --> 00:48:03,381

But for the years I was there,

it was mostly rapid growth.

:

00:48:03,401 --> 00:48:04,391

It was, it was great.

:

00:48:04,391 --> 00:48:04,701

When.

:

00:48:04,772 --> 00:48:08,642

you were working from people like with

ABC and we, we made lost one of the best

:

00:48:08,642 --> 00:48:11,232

selling TV box sets of all time, right?

:

00:48:11,232 --> 00:48:15,969

That was amazing to, animation working

with the Pixar people and Steve jobs

:

00:48:15,969 --> 00:48:20,389

on finding Nemo and toy story to, the

people at the Disney channel, high

:

00:48:20,389 --> 00:48:25,559

school musical was a huge seller on DVD

to of course, pirates of the Caribbean

:

00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:27,169

and Disney live action movies, right?

:

00:48:27,169 --> 00:48:28,629

It was amazing how.

:

00:48:28,746 --> 00:48:32,046

There was all this consumption and

people wanted to have their library.

:

00:48:32,046 --> 00:48:34,786

And of course, from a marketing

standpoint, there was this idea that

:

00:48:34,796 --> 00:48:38,682

hurry, get the Lion King before it

goes back into the Disney vault.

:

00:48:38,709 --> 00:48:43,459

Yes, and this is and I will give credit

to roy disney He came up with the idea

:

00:48:43,479 --> 00:48:47,626

or theatrical back I think in:

because they needed money So they said

:

00:48:47,626 --> 00:48:52,366

let's bring back snow white into theaters

So we we copied that but what we did is

:

00:48:52,366 --> 00:48:54,436

we added this concept of a disney vault.

:

00:48:54,446 --> 00:48:57,254

We actually Created a

vault that slammed shut.

:

00:48:57,254 --> 00:49:02,084

So in our commercial, Ariel would swim

into the vault and we would slam shut.

:

00:49:02,184 --> 00:49:06,044

And you don't want to be that bad

parent that prevents your kids from

:

00:49:06,044 --> 00:49:08,884

experiencing Sebastian founder and Ariel.

:

00:49:08,974 --> 00:49:09,304

Right.

:

00:49:09,457 --> 00:49:10,257

So that was great.

:

00:49:10,257 --> 00:49:13,657

And of course that doesn't work as well

now with everything being accessible,

:

00:49:13,657 --> 00:49:17,587

but back then, oh my goodness, our

disappearing classics campaign was huge.

:

00:49:17,751 --> 00:49:18,640

Yeah, gee, thanks.

:

00:49:18,641 --> 00:49:19,341

Thanks, Gordon.

:

00:49:19,381 --> 00:49:19,691

Thanks.

:

00:49:19,691 --> 00:49:20,231

Yeah, sorry.

:

00:49:20,641 --> 00:49:21,261

Sorry, John.

:

00:49:21,601 --> 00:49:25,271

But those, those were examples of things

that were so much fun creating those

:

00:49:25,271 --> 00:49:29,357

type of things, did a lot of testing

with packaging, because we would test

:

00:49:29,357 --> 00:49:32,837

our packages and see which ones would pop

off the shelf that people want to buy.

:

00:49:32,929 --> 00:49:36,319

And then even, and I mentioned to you,

inventing direct to video was, was quite

:

00:49:36,319 --> 00:49:39,619

the thing that we're very proud of, which

made a lot of money for the company.

:

00:49:39,696 --> 00:49:42,736

And the last thing I would say is

recognizing that we needed data

:

00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:47,116

because most of the data for movies

were with the, with the theater chains

:

00:49:47,116 --> 00:49:49,016

like AMC or they're with Walmart.

:

00:49:49,037 --> 00:49:52,527

So we decided to create our own loyalty

program, Disney Movie Rewards, and that

:

00:49:52,527 --> 00:49:56,091

allowed us to have a huge database of

millions of people, which have then was

:

00:49:56,091 --> 00:49:57,851

used as a foundation for Disney Plus.

:

00:49:57,861 --> 00:50:01,331

So I'm very proud that we come, we came

up with that loyalty program because

:

00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:05,011

data is the new digital gold, if you

say so a little bit of some of the

:

00:50:05,011 --> 00:50:07,841

things that we worked on that, that

very proud of the teams and what we

:

00:50:07,851 --> 00:50:11,531

were able to do during a category that

was growing rapidly until it didn't.

:

00:50:11,802 --> 00:50:12,212

Yeah.

:

00:50:12,366 --> 00:50:12,566

Yeah.

:

00:50:12,606 --> 00:50:16,756

Well, I think that's a good lesson

for, for any marketer is just, not

:

00:50:16,756 --> 00:50:20,196

being afraid to evolve and change

before it changes you, you know.

:

00:50:20,346 --> 00:50:20,406

Yeah.

:

00:50:21,219 --> 00:50:21,429

Yep.

:

00:50:21,672 --> 00:50:24,252

Guys, it was a pleasure

talking to you, John.

:

00:50:24,252 --> 00:50:25,122

Fine, thank you so much.

:

00:50:25,122 --> 00:50:26,982

You, your, your students are so lucky.

:

00:50:27,072 --> 00:50:28,362

It's no, you're so high.

:

00:50:28,362 --> 00:50:30,042

You are truly a masterclass.

:

00:50:30,042 --> 00:50:32,322

I feel like we can do this

all day, and learn from you.

:

00:50:32,532 --> 00:50:34,879

So, your, you're so well,

we'll do a part two.

:

00:50:34,939 --> 00:50:35,479

That's fine.

:

00:50:35,484 --> 00:50:36,799

We'll, we'll look forward to it.

:

00:50:36,799 --> 00:50:39,769

But guys, congratulations on

your podcast, and it was a lot

:

00:50:39,769 --> 00:50:40,999

of fun talking to you guys.

:

00:50:40,999 --> 00:50:41,119

Awesome.

:

00:50:41,379 --> 00:50:41,769

Thanks, Gordon.

:

00:50:41,769 --> 00:50:42,699

Thank you very much.

:

00:50:42,699 --> 00:50:43,449

We appreciate it.

:

00:50:43,629 --> 00:50:44,469

You guys take care.

:

00:50:44,469 --> 00:50:44,742

All right.

:

00:50:44,757 --> 00:50:44,957

All right.

:

00:50:49,033 --> 00:50:54,456

Well, John, Gordon, just brought so

much intelligence and, great examples.

:

00:50:54,510 --> 00:50:55,660

just fantastic.

:

00:50:55,990 --> 00:51:00,430

Example after example of just

amazing what they had to figure out.

:

00:51:00,463 --> 00:51:00,813

Yeah.

:

00:51:00,850 --> 00:51:01,170

Yeah.

:

00:51:01,170 --> 00:51:04,620

And the attention to detail to

me, that's such a huge thing.

:

00:51:04,620 --> 00:51:07,800

And, the big learning I got out

of it was just how prepared he was.

:

00:51:09,465 --> 00:51:13,355

And you know, anybody could be

in a, in a position of being in a

:

00:51:13,355 --> 00:51:16,835

crisis one day, but just staying

ahead of the game is so important.

:

00:51:16,835 --> 00:51:19,855

And it's hard, so hard to see that

sometimes when you're kind of in the

:

00:51:19,865 --> 00:51:21,535

middle of your job day to day, but.

:

00:51:21,705 --> 00:51:25,138

You really need to be able to, prepare for

any type of situation that might pop up.

:

00:51:25,328 --> 00:51:25,658

Yeah.

:

00:51:25,838 --> 00:51:26,098

Yeah.

:

00:51:26,098 --> 00:51:29,258

And even though the way it

unfolded, there's no way they could

:

00:51:29,258 --> 00:51:30,418

have prepared for all of that.

:

00:51:30,718 --> 00:51:33,458

There's no way they could have done

what they did if they hadn't prepared.

:

00:51:33,668 --> 00:51:37,911

I also loved the, the, the notion that

they were able to share best practices

:

00:51:37,911 --> 00:51:41,461

with the industry, because to his

point, that's not good for anybody.

:

00:51:41,621 --> 00:51:45,945

If there's calamity happening, across,

you know, an entire section of tourism,

:

00:51:45,945 --> 00:51:50,025

especially with the way that everything

was unfolding during that time.

:

00:51:50,025 --> 00:51:51,325

everything was falling apart.

:

00:51:51,325 --> 00:51:53,641

So the fact that, they're able

to share how to get through

:

00:51:53,641 --> 00:51:54,961

this that's the right thing to

:

00:51:54,961 --> 00:51:55,301

Do.

:

00:51:56,561 --> 00:51:57,431

. interesting.

:

00:51:57,951 --> 00:52:00,971

Hopefully, hopelessly

unattainable guests for you, John.

:

00:52:01,751 --> 00:52:04,351

I think it's somebody that

we need to be talking to.

:

00:52:04,381 --> 00:52:09,871

We can gain some intelligence on

business and, financial acumen.

:

00:52:09,981 --> 00:52:13,755

And, the person that, I'm reaching

out to here is Warren Buffett.

:

00:52:13,901 --> 00:52:14,981

Oh, good.

:

00:52:15,011 --> 00:52:15,301

Yeah.

:

00:52:15,455 --> 00:52:15,935

Good one.

:

00:52:16,035 --> 00:52:18,545

So, here's my letter to Warren Buffett.

:

00:52:18,841 --> 00:52:20,428

Dear Warren, help.

:

00:52:20,556 --> 00:52:24,386

Please help us understand how

you became an investment genius.

:

00:52:24,426 --> 00:52:27,330

We want to know, no, we need to know Mr.

:

00:52:27,330 --> 00:52:32,280

Oracle of Omaha, your 45 steps ahead

of everyone else, your patience and

:

00:52:32,290 --> 00:52:36,440

perseverance in the market and in

people exudes leadership and confidence.

:

00:52:36,513 --> 00:52:38,563

We believe in you and your actions.

:

00:52:38,573 --> 00:52:41,203

So help us learn on our

podcast, snap decisions.

:

00:52:41,223 --> 00:52:44,733

We'd love to go back to the

beginning, how you found inspiration

:

00:52:44,743 --> 00:52:48,503

in the:

ways to make a thousand dollars.

:

00:52:48,503 --> 00:52:51,896

All that business acumen you gain

from your jobs and your youth, how you

:

00:52:51,896 --> 00:52:55,940

place pinball machines in local barber

shops, how you graduated early from the

:

00:52:55,940 --> 00:53:01,433

in:

you were a millionaire by the early 1960s

:

00:53:02,073 --> 00:53:03,873

and a billionaire by the mid eighties.

:

00:53:04,128 --> 00:53:07,198

But we want to know about the famous

long game you play, the trust you

:

00:53:07,198 --> 00:53:11,125

place in a stock's value, in the people

that run companies, how you're able

:

00:53:11,125 --> 00:53:14,695

to cut through the pressure and the

noise and operate on simple terms.

:

00:53:15,005 --> 00:53:18,725

You're unlike anyone, and you're

still going strong today at 93.

:

00:53:18,941 --> 00:53:23,885

Let's talk on Zoom or at that

Omaha house that you have:

:

00:53:25,085 --> 00:53:28,125

What has and hasn't changed

in the life of Warren Buffett.

:

00:53:28,458 --> 00:53:30,638

Our giant base of listeners

want to hear about it.

:

00:53:30,835 --> 00:53:32,715

Let us know a time that works for you.

:

00:53:32,765 --> 00:53:35,775

Feel free to send your

jet or horse and buggy.

:

00:53:35,918 --> 00:53:37,348

Thanks, Brian and John.

:

00:53:38,658 --> 00:53:39,238

Wow.

:

00:53:39,415 --> 00:53:40,095

That's a good one.

:

00:53:40,281 --> 00:53:43,381

We need to get Warren into the

top of the queue here in terms of

:

00:53:43,708 --> 00:53:44,968

Our hopelessly unattainable guest.

:

00:53:44,968 --> 00:53:48,631

We need to get to him

first because he's 93.

:

00:53:48,631 --> 00:53:51,878

We better hurry.

:

00:53:53,878 --> 00:53:54,358

Indeed.

:

00:53:54,578 --> 00:53:57,598

Although he strikes me as someone who may

actually keep going for quite a while.

:

00:53:57,808 --> 00:54:00,665

Yeah, yeah, he seems, like

he's gonna defeat time.

:

00:54:01,135 --> 00:54:03,545

All right, well, it's a race

between him and Jason Kelsey,

:

00:54:03,565 --> 00:54:05,155

so let's, let's see what we got.

:

00:54:06,935 --> 00:54:07,385

Let's do it.

:

00:54:07,685 --> 00:54:11,425

All right, well thanks, good

episode, loved, loved hearing, from

:

00:54:11,425 --> 00:54:14,625

Gordon, , liked talking to you about

Boeing, and, till next time, eh?

:

00:54:14,785 --> 00:54:15,935

Yeah, let's shut it down.

:

00:54:16,295 --> 00:54:17,635

All right, bye.

:

00:54:17,715 --> 00:54:17,815

See ya.

Listen for free

Show artwork for Snap Decisions

About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia