She's Got Game: GS&P's Margaret Johnson

Brian: 00:00:05

Right, John.

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Welcome back.

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John: Hey, Brian, welcome back and

welcome to folks who are listening.

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, if you're new to Snap Decisions,

this is the podcast that gives you

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a behind the scenes look at some of

the big decisions that shape the way

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products and brands and personalities

present themselves to the world.

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And today we've got a real expert at that.

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And following up our last episode,

which is all about the Super Bowl.

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We've got someone who knows a little

something about creating Super

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Bowl ads, good Super Bowl ads.

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Before that, what do

you got for me, Brian?

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Brian: You know, I was reading the news

the last couple of days and saw a really

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interesting story that I wanted to get

your reaction to, so, uh, in San Francisco

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during the celebration of the lunar new

year, recently, a Waymo car, which is the

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driverless Google car, was set ablaze.

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A bunch of partiers set the car on fire

in San Francisco, in Chinatown, as they

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were celebrating the Lunar New Year.

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And, the car was attacked driving

through the neighborhood with, a partier

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throwing a firework into the empty car,

causing the car to go up in flames.

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thankfully no one was in the car

and no one else was apparently

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injured, which is great.

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But.

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I brought up questions on my end here.

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Number one, are we seeing a

growing, backlash against technology?

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I think things are popping

up all over our lives.

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Specifically in the, uh,

self-driving category.

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A recent Washington Post analysis

found at least 40 serious or fatal

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accidents among the 900 reported

from Tesla in the last few years.

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Investment in that category is decreasing.

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With that, as well as all the things

happening with AI and how it may replace

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jobs and how these things are just

becoming disruptive forces in our society.

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People walking around with the Apple

Vision Pro in the middle of a Uh, so,

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John, should we expect more of this

type of backlash against technology?

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You know, I don't know that

we can specifically say that

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the way mo explosion was a

backlash against technology.

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But as tech advances, will we see, human

backlash to the advancement of technology?

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John: Hmm.

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I'm a little torn.

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first you said a few things in there about

the situation, celebration, partiers.

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New Year's, fireworks, I don't know,

it sounds to me like not too dissimilar

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from certain, I don't know, celebratory

crowds post football game, you know,

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there for celebration, ends up in

mayhem, , I think that's more likely

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the case than a backlash against the

technology, however, I do know People

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have a real visceral reaction to

this driverless car thing, right?

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Brian: Yeah, I mean, I don't

think it would have happened if

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someone was actually in the car.

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John: Yeah, no, you're right.

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I probably, you don't hear a

whole lot about people throwing

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fireworks into Ubers, right?

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Thankfully.

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My kids don't get any ideas.

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yeah, no, I, I feel like, uh, it is.

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The autonomous self driving car

thing is a little bit of a lightning

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rod topic for people for reasons

I don't entirely understand.

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I think there's just that visceral

visceral reaction in terms of a

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larger backlash against technology.

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I don't know.

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I'm not sure I'm seeing it.

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I'm seeing a lot of hand wringing

about AI and people getting on their

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high horses with opinions, but I don't,

has anyone really taken big action?

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Is anyone writing letters to congressmen

in mass yet about, slowing down AI or any

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of the other digital advances we've seen?

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People complain about social media

platforms , using consumers as the product

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and people don't stop using it though.

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It just keeps going.

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Brian: It just keeps going.

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there is some backlash against things

like, um, self checkouts and a lot

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of brands are concerned about, theft.

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in fact, Target has recently, um,

made some changes to the, the hours

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with which self checkout will, uh,

be available in some of their stores.

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Because they're afraid even though

it creates a better environment and

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people like it there are some other

customers who have never really grown

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towards that technology, but , I

don't know that there's a lot of facts

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against the backlash yet either But

it'll be interesting to watch The

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driverless segment is interesting.

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, I think Yes, it's it's fascinating because

the percentage of which there'll be car

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accidents through a driverless car will

probably be much less than a human,

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John: Much less.

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Brian: but.

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The instances where there will be

accidents could be in instances

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where a human might easily.

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Not get an accident, so look,

it's, it's still in its infancy,

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but, um, it'd be interesting to

see kind of where that goes and how

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people, become comfortable with that.

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So,

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John: Yeah, I think there's a big

difference between backlash and just,

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you know, complaining about stuff.

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But I don't know that anyone really

does anything or really stops using

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these tools that, generally make

their lives a little more convenient.

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Brian: yeah, yeah, good point.

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John: Alright, well, with that, should

we, , dive into talking to our guest?

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Our esteemed guest.

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All right, Brian, as you know,

I am beyond excited to introduce

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one of the most influential people

working in advertising today.

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Margaret Johnson is the first

ever Chief Creative Officer of one

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of the world's best ad agencies,

could be Silverstein and Partners.

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The agency is known for iconic

ad campaigns like Got Milk?

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and The Budweiser Lizards,

representing clients including Nike,

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HP, BMW, eBay, Doritos, Comcast,

the NBA, and a whole lot more.

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And under Margaret's creative

leadership, the agency has been

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recognized with pretty much every

advertising award known to humankind.

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It was also named the most

innovative advertising agency

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by Fast Company in 2021.

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Margaret herself was named executive

of the year in: 2018

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and cited as the ad industry's top

chief creative officer by Forbes.

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Business Insider and Adweek.

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Name an advertising award, she's won it.

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She's also a tireless advocate for

underrepresented professionals in

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advertising and is a founding member of

the 3 percent conference, which we'll

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touch on in a little bit with her.

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This year she and her team had

four ads in the Super Bowl,

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more than any other agency.

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With two of them excelling

in national consumer polls.

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Talking like Walken for BMW,

and Dina and Mita for Doritos.

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I could go on and on and on, but that

would cut into our time with her.

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Please welcome Margaret Johnson.

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Yeah!

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All right, an advertising

legend in our presence.

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Margaret: Thanks so much for

asking me to be on the podcast.

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John: All right, Margaret, to get started,

just can you orient our guests and tell

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us a little more about your role at

could be Silverstein and Partners, and

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and maybe fill us in on what exactly

does a Chief Creative Officer do?

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Margaret: So I am Chief Creative Officer

here at Goodby Silverstein and Partners.

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And I basically, oversee all the

creative work that leaves the building.

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John: So let's get into the fact that

you did just produce all those Super

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Bowl ads, uh, more than any other agency.

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What kind of effort goes into that?

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Can you tell us a little bit about, you

know, the steps that are involved in

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creating a national ad, um, and whether

it's really a whole lot different

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to do one for such a big event?

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Margaret: I think it's really different

than any other, you know, brief

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that, that comes through because

there's so much more pressure on it.

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There's so much, you know, money and

celebrity involved that, uh, you have a

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lot more eyes, um, on the creative work.

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You have a lot more clients that are, you

know, a part of the process and onset.

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So, yeah, it's, there's a lot

more pressure there for sure.

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John: And what are the steps?

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Like, how does it, how

does a bill become a law?

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How do you, how do you get from kind

of that, that brief you mentioned to a

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finished ad that runs in the Super Bowl?

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Margaret: It's funny.

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It varies from client to client.

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We've been doing Super Bowl

spots for, you know, Frito Lay

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and PepsiCo for a long time.

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So that process starts.

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a lot earlier.

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Those clients are, really savvy and

they want to be a part of the process.

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And they're, uh, incredibly organized when

it comes to producing this kind of stuff.

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For Frito Lay, we started in the

summer, so months and months and months.

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ahead of time.

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Um, then on the opposite end of

the spectrum, you have a client

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like Kawasaki, who had never been

in the Super Bowl before, and we

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only started, a few months in.

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So, it, it kind of depends on

how seasoned the client is,

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uh, in the Super Bowl arena,

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Brian: can you talk a little bit

about, , organizing all those different

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types of people and, and pieces of it

between, , you know, the brand and the

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celebrities, all the crews you're working

with, your creative teams, , all these

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influencing factors that go into the ad?

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Like, how do you guys kind of

keep it all running together?

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Margaret: You know, it kind

of just, you do it bit by bit.

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I mean, on the celebrity front.

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You know, initially you'll

pitch an idea to the client.

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They'll like that idea.

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You'll have a few, celebrities in mind.

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You approach the first one.

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And, uh, honestly the name of the game

is flexibility because if you don't get

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that one celebrity, you don't want your

idea to, to die because that one person.

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Doesn't want to, uh, do the app.

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So, , then you move on to the next one.

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So it just kind of like

unfolds in that way.

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You just do it bit by bit.

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John: Were there any ads this year that

had a big unexpected twist or where that

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flexibility had to really come into play?

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Margaret: Um, yeah, for sure.

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I mean, our BMW spot's a great example.

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We pitched the idea, the client loved it.

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We got, usher on board and the

whole thing at the time really

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hinged on, you know, his hit song.

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Yeah.

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And as we got into the negotiations,

with the NFL and got into the specifics

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around the ad, the NFL said, you

can't use that song because usher's

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going to be doing the halftime show.

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So you can't use that song.

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Um, so then we had to go back

and rethink the whole ending.

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So that's a great example of like

flexibility is kind of the name of

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the game when it comes to Super Bowl.

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John: Well, it worked because

that, that kind of subtle little

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yeah at the end actually, I think

kind of had a little more impact.

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Margaret: well, it also worked

really well with our position in

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the lineup because the spot ran

just before the halftime show.

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So it kind of teed that up nicely

when you cut to him singing it.

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Brian: Can you talk about, your

different teams internally?

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Like, is there a lot of, a little bit

of like fun competition between your

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teams to come up with the best spot or

how do you guys kind of work together

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Margaret: there's definitely, um, a

healthy competition around here for, you

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know, you know, who it's, it's a jump

ball usually, so you have a lot of teams

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initially throwing in ideas and, not

every team though is, is, is up for it.

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I will say that I think we've been

doing it long enough that people around

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the creative department know that

it's you're in for the long haul when

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you sign up for Super Bowl, because.

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So much goes, into testing

and things that are just

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completely out of your control.

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So you kind of need to go

in eyes wide open, knowing

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that . It's not gonna be easy.

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Brian: How are the senior

executives involved like yourself?

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, are you, you try to give people space

to be able to do it or do you have

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to be more involved just because

it's such a, such a larger magnitude?

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How do you get involved?

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Margaret: Yeah, I mean, on Super Bowl,

very involved because, you're dealing

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with the most senior clients for, each

brand and like I said before, there's

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just so much money at stake and celebrity

and there's just, , a lot on the line.

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So, in the case of Super Bowl, I'm, I'm

really involved in that whole process.

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I always go to those shoots.

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John: So, Margaret, I've Always wondered,

, when you look at the day after analysis

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of, you know, what Super Bowl spots people

like, um, you know, there's so many that

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are super funny, super memorable, really

dramatic in the moment, but a lot of

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them, you go two days down the road and

people have no idea which brand did what.

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Uh, or it didn't change their

opinions or purchase behavior.

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When you're building ads for such an

entertainment focused showcase, like

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the Superbowl, how do you focus your

teams on creating something that you

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think will actually move the needle?

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It will actually work for the client.

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Margaret: I think the key there is,

and we talk about this a lot, um, at

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the agency is to make sure you're, you

know, making stuff people care about.

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That's the only way that your idea is

going to break through and that people

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are going to remember the brand, right?

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They're going to, you want them to,

to watch it and think to themselves,

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that brand, they really get me.

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I want to, I want to

interact with that brand.

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I'm going to buy their stuff.

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John: So as a consumer yourself, when

you're watching, are there times when you

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watch something and you just go, Oh my

gosh, I can't believe they spent all that

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money and no one's going to know what that

was for or what I'm supposed to think.

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Margaret: Yes.

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What a waste of money.

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Well, you know, and then, you know, in a

lot of cases, they're just promoting the

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category when they don't break through

and do something that's memorable.

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Um, they're doing their,

their own brand of disservice.

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John: prepared to name any names?

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Margaret: No,

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John: Come

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Margaret: not my first rodeo.

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John: under a bus.

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I'm kidding.

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Of course not.

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Those same clients are probably going,

maybe we should call Goodby Silverstein

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to Barton or Sedora next year, cause

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Margaret: I hope so.

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John: we just wasted a lot of money.

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Brian: you know, with that obsession

of the cost of the Super Bowl ad, you

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know, everybody talks about it and

everybody kind of follows how much

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more and more it costs each year.

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How do you manage that with brands and,

um, you know, especially the ones that

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are on the fence and whether it fits or,

or people that you maybe say this may not

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be for you, even if you have the money,

are you dealing with things like that?

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Margaret: Yeah, I mean, it's

an interesting question.

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There's so many platforms now that it's

really hard to, reach all the audiences

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that you're, trying to reach out to.

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And the Super Bowl is advertising's,

you know, biggest stage and, you know,

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It's the the one day a year where

you can reach everyone all at once.

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Everyone's watching everyone

from, you know, tiny little

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kids to great grandparents.

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Um, so it, it is a valuable

bang for your buck,

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John: Any ads in this year's

game, Margaret, that you

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wish that you had worked on,

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Margaret: You know, I really liked

the, um, the Paramount Plus ad.

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I

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didn't,

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John: it, so did Brian.

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Margaret: Oh, yeah.

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Well, I feel like I didn't get the.

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The, the attention it deserved, but

there were so many other, studios

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that were just, pushing their

sizzle reels and using, their

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properties in a pretty generic way.

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And I just thought they did a really

nice job of taking those properties and,

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creating something that was conceptual

and, and really, really interesting.

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And they still had all the things,

um, that work on Super Bowl.

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You know, they had celebrity,

you know, Drew Barrymore.

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Uh, they had like great music with Creed.

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They had even animated characters.

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Like they had like all the ingredients.

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They actually did something that

was memorable and conceptual.

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And I thought they did a nice job.

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Brian: You know, we had a, um, day after

quick rundown of the commercial podcast.

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And they released that so early

that I wonder if it kind of ran out

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of steam by the time the game came

around, because a lot of people had

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seen it before the game started.

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What are your thoughts on the pre release?

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I like watching it in the moment.

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Now I know that spending a lot of

money, you might be in a room with

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a crowd of people and not be able

to, you know, hear the commercials.

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So like, it helps the brands to

release them earlier, but what

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are your, what are your thoughts

about when to release a commercial?

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Margaret: I mean, as a pure creative

person, I'm with you a hundred percent.

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I like being surprised and

seeing everything fresh.

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And for the first time during the game.

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But if I'm a client and an investment

strategy, I think there's a lot to say

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for releasing it early and making sure

that, you know, the celebrities or

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influencers that you have involved are

helping you push out that content ahead

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of time so that you're getting, as many

eyeballs on, on the creative as possible.

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It's going to be the most

effective in that way.

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: 00:16:32

, John: and I guess some of the thinking

there on the pre release too is it

304

: 00:16:35

lets you have a little more runway

on whatever digital experiences,

305

: 00:16:39

you know, companion pieces you're

making to go along with the ad,

306

: 00:16:43

Margaret: that's exactly right.

307

: 00:16:44

John: how big a challenge is that for you?

308

: 00:16:46

It's not just that you

can do an ad and move on.

309

: 00:16:49

You've gotta create a whole

experience around the advertising.

310

: 00:16:52

How is that a stressor for the agency

and, and how do you approach that?

311

: 00:16:56

Margaret: stressor, but it's

definitely a part of the process.

312

: 00:16:59

You know, you want the ripple effect.

313

: 00:17:00

You want to have, the excitement pregame.

314

: 00:17:03

So people have something, that

they're looking forward to.

315

: 00:17:06

You want to have the spot itself.

316

: 00:17:07

And then after, the game, you want the,

the idea and experience to, to live on.

317

: 00:17:13

, for Kawasaki this year, we did a promotion

or a partnership with Great Clips.

318

: 00:17:18

And so we gave away.

319

: 00:17:20

15, 000 free mullets after the

game and, you know, that just

320

: 00:17:24

kept the conversation going.

321

: 00:17:25

I

322

: 00:17:26

don't want to talk

323

: 00:17:29

John: Yeah.

324

: 00:17:29

Do we, do we thank you or curse

you for having 15,000 more mullets

325

: 00:17:33

in the country walking around

that that's, that's a tough call.

326

: 00:17:37

Margaret: think you'd look

good with a mullet, John.

327

: 00:17:40

John: I was, I was approaching

mullet hood, last fall.

328

: 00:17:45

Brian: there's been a lot of conversation

in the last several months on, you

329

: 00:17:48

know, brands making big investments

in advertising and marketing and

330

: 00:17:52

maybe not seeing immediate results.

331

: 00:17:54

, the one that really comes to mind is

the conversation around solo stove who

332

: 00:17:57

had the black Friday, um, advertising

with Snoop Dogg I think immediate

333

: 00:18:02

sales are a fair question, but it's

really not the opportunity that, that

334

: 00:18:07

these types of opportunities present.

335

: 00:18:08

I mean, like, what are your, what are your

thoughts on managing clients expectations

336

: 00:18:12

of what they're actually getting

out of, uh, an ad on a large scale?

337

: 00:18:16

Margaret: I think you have

one big opportunity to insert

338

: 00:18:19

yourself into pop culture now and

Super Bowl is that opportunity.

339

: 00:18:25

It is advertising's biggest stage.

340

: 00:18:27

And like I said before, everyone is

watching all at once, you know, from

341

: 00:18:32

little kids to great grandparents.

342

: 00:18:33

So you're, you're getting a lot of

bang for your buck, and it's a great

343

: 00:18:37

opportunity to get lots of different

kinds of people and lots of different

344

: 00:18:41

audiences talking about your brand.

345

: 00:18:44

Brian: What was the, uh, what was the

first Superbowl ad you ever worked on?

346

: 00:18:47

Margaret: I think the first one that

I ever did, was Fire and Ice for, um,

347

: 00:18:54

Well, it was the first Super Bowl spot to

ever have two brands in one commercial.

348

: 00:19:00

And we did it with

Mountain Dew and Doritos.

349

: 00:19:03

Definitely, uh, definitely

a hairy experience.

350

: 00:19:06

John: wait, why, why Harry?

351

: 00:19:08

What happened?

352

: 00:19:08

I

353

: 00:19:10

, Margaret: well, originally, and If

you remember , that commercial, it

354

: 00:19:15

featured, , Morgan Freeman and Peter

Dinklage, and they were having, It

355

: 00:19:20

was kind of a, a dueling banjo, kind

of, they were rapping against each

356

: 00:19:24

other, and a rap off, and a rap battle.

357

: 00:19:29

And, uh, we had originally cast,

uh, Kevin Spacey to play both roles.

358

: 00:19:35

So he was going to be, , in

this rap battle with himself,

359

: 00:19:38

representing , each brand.

360

: 00:19:39

And then the night before he was to sign

the contract, he had his me too moment.

361

: 00:19:46

And, uh, we had to quickly switch, like

I said before, the name of the game

362

: 00:19:53

is flexibility when you're working on,

on super bowl and not, you know, you

363

: 00:19:57

can't get yourself too tied to any one,

364

: 00:20:00

Brian: Yeah.

365

: 00:20:00

I mean, look

366

: 00:20:01

what could happen this year with,

uh, FanDuel and the Carl Weathers.

367

: 00:20:04

I died before the,

368

: 00:20:05

John: Yeah, that could have been,

that could have been terrible, but

369

: 00:20:08

they actually were able to salvage

something decent out of that.

370

: 00:20:12

I mean, not the ad, but the

reference to Carl Weathers.

371

: 00:20:16

Margaret: Well, the interesting thing

that happened on this one was that, part

372

: 00:20:21

of , the fun of that ad is seeing someone

super unexpected, you know, rapping and,

373

: 00:20:28

When we found out that, you know, Kevin

wasn't going to work out, obviously, the

374

: 00:20:33

easiest thing for us to do or for the

client to do was to, to switch gears.

375

: 00:20:37

They already had a relationship, um,

with, uh, Kevin Hart and they were like,

376

: 00:20:43

well, we'll just use Kevin Hart instead.

377

: 00:20:45

And I remember I was sitting in my car,

it was the night before Thanksgiving

378

: 00:20:50

and I, I thought I was going to have

a conversation about this whole thing

379

: 00:20:55

with, one client and it ended up being

15 clients and me on the phone and I had

380

: 00:21:02

to make a case for why it would be more

interesting to hear Morgan Freeman rap.

381

: 00:21:08

Missy Elliott than to see

Kevin Hart rap Missy Elliott.

382

: 00:21:12

And my whole thing was that, you know,

everyone expects Kevin to do something

383

: 00:21:18

funny, but you don't expect Morgan

Freeman to do something that, unexpected.

384

: 00:21:23

So anyway, it was a whole conversation

and a long one, but it worked out.

385

: 00:21:29

John: Wow.

386

: 00:21:30

Well, great call, right?

387

: 00:21:32

Really great call that you were

able to advocate in kind of a high

388

: 00:21:34

pressure situation for something

that turned out to be a real winner.

389

: 00:21:38

Um, you answered my question about any,

you know, really big pivotal moments

390

: 00:21:41

that we had to make a snap decision

because that's what this podcast is

391

: 00:21:44

all about, but you just answered that.

392

: 00:21:46

That sounds like a pretty in real time

decision to go somewhere different.

393

: 00:21:50

Margaret: Yeah, I think that

one is, uh, burned in memory.

394

: 00:21:53

It has been one of the most, uh,

stressful, and, you know, the first

395

: 00:21:58

situation like that I've been in,

so it's, a good learning experience.

396

: 00:22:02

John: trial by fire and dice.

397

: 00:22:04

Margaret: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

398

: 00:22:05

John: I know you can't name favorites, but

is there a Super Bowl ad campaign you've

399

: 00:22:10

worked on that really just stands apart?

400

: 00:22:12

is just so memorable for you,

like really high impact for you

401

: 00:22:16

Margaret: know, I, I, I really, you

know, you love all your children.

402

: 00:22:20

John: Exactly.

403

: 00:22:21

Margaret: But I did love the,

the cool ranch spot that we did.

404

: 00:22:25

Was, a dance off between,

Sam Elliott and Lil Nas X.

405

: 00:22:29

And that one just had, it was a fun one

to shoot, but it also had, um, a great,

406

: 00:22:35

we were, you know, talking before about.

407

: 00:22:37

Um, extensions of what you're doing

after the game, and it had an awesome

408

: 00:22:41

extension, a Sway app that we produced

that, you know, let the consumer dance

409

: 00:22:47

like Lil Nas and, um, put tons of,

really fun content out into the world.

410

: 00:22:52

So that one stands out.

411

: 00:22:53

It was a really simple idea.

412

: 00:22:55

Loosely based on the good,

the bad and the ugly.

413

: 00:22:57

Uh, but the, the fight was over

a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos.

414

: 00:23:00

And it was just, it was just a fun one,

415

: 00:23:02

John: Yeah, that's a winner.

416

: 00:23:03

And one that, you know, just with

all that passage of time, I do

417

: 00:23:07

remember being for Cool Ranch

Doritos without you having to say it.

418

: 00:23:10

So, and you teed up, I think, a

really interesting transition.

419

: 00:23:14

Goodby Silverstein Partners used to

be known kind of as a TV first agency,

420

: 00:23:19

or maybe that was your competitors

who are putting that out there.

421

: 00:23:21

I don't know.

422

: 00:23:21

But, um, yeah, probably.

423

: 00:23:24

But you, you really navigated that

shift from traditional media like

424

: 00:23:27

TV into digital media, the digital

media landscape incredibly well.

425

: 00:23:32

How did you in the agency

make that transition?

426

: 00:23:35

Margaret: You know, for me personally,

I've always been really interested

427

: 00:23:39

in the tech side of things.

428

: 00:23:40

I'm married to a former tech journalist.

429

: 00:23:44

So, um, like it or not, I've

kind of been on this journey.

430

: 00:23:48

Since, you know, since like 99

so, I just am genuinely curious.

431

: 00:23:57

And interested in technology.

432

: 00:23:59

We have an in house innovation

lab here at the agency.

433

: 00:24:02

It's called GSP labs, , where it's

filled with lots of, , people who

434

: 00:24:08

like to tinker and make prototypes

and help us educate the agency about

435

: 00:24:12

the latest tech that, is coming.

436

: 00:24:15

We're lucky because we kind of get

that first wave of tech just because

437

: 00:24:19

of our proximity to Silicon Valley.

438

: 00:24:22

So it's just a part of who we are

these days , and very much a part of,

439

: 00:24:26

um, how the work gets made, you know,

creatives will sit in, we have these

440

: 00:24:32

tech talks where they, you know, they're

kind of like, Education, you know,

441

: 00:24:36

workshops and a creative might hear

about a piece of technology and not

442

: 00:24:41

immediately think that it's applicable

to something that they're working on.

443

: 00:24:45

And then, a brief comes across their

desk and they're like, Oh yeah, you

444

: 00:24:49

know, they filed it away and they pull,

pull it back out of the drawer and

445

: 00:24:53

they're like, okay, this is my chance

to, to do something really innovative

446

: 00:24:57

for the brand that I'm working on.

447

: 00:24:59

And lots of ideas are born that way.

448

: 00:25:03

Brian: That's cool.

449

: 00:25:03

, I'm sure the labs playing around

with some, augmented reality or

450

: 00:25:07

apple vision pro stuff right now.

451

: 00:25:10

Margaret: Yeah, we're doing a lot

of experimenting with that stuff.

452

: 00:25:12

I mean, that kind of experimentation's

been going on forever.

453

: 00:25:16

I think 2016 was when we

did our first VR experience.

454

: 00:25:21

And that was for, the Dali Museum.

455

: 00:25:24

It was called, Dreams of Dali.

456

: 00:25:26

But it was kind of our, dipping our

toe into, to VR way back in: 2016

457

: 00:25:32

So we've been doing it for a long time.

458

: 00:25:35

John: So being ahead of the curve

like that and having those in house

459

: 00:25:38

resources like The labs probably

helps attract a more digitally savvy,

460

: 00:25:44

digitally attuned creative director

and writer and art director, right?

461

: 00:25:49

Margaret: Yeah, and it helps attract.

462

: 00:25:52

Super innovative talent, and it also

really helps, as a strong assist to

463

: 00:25:58

those , who aren't as tech savvy,

they have, a whole team of people

464

: 00:26:02

that they can, can lean on to that.

465

: 00:26:04

John: I've noticed over the past year

or so, you've been a little bit out

466

: 00:26:07

front, uh, in terms of the advertising

community, in terms of talking about

467

: 00:26:12

navigating the, collision, of generative

AI technology with human creativity.

468

: 00:26:18

So, can you talk a little bit about

how Your organization, how could be

469

: 00:26:21

Silverstein and Partners, which is

totally powered by human creativity.

470

: 00:26:25

How do you handle the speed at which the

machines seem to be, uh, getting really

471

: 00:26:29

good at generating creative content?

472

: 00:26:34

Margaret: It's funny, I did a whole

conversation about this with Brad

473

: 00:26:37

Lightcap, who is the COO of OpenAI, and we

did this at Cannes last year, and it was.

474

: 00:26:44

standing room only.

475

: 00:26:45

Like you have, you

476

: 00:26:45

know, you know, audience of creatives

asking, asking the same thing and

477

: 00:26:52

you have to embrace it and just run

straight towards the fire, is my advice.

478

: 00:26:58

You know, we, we work really hard to keep

the agency Super educated on this front.

479

: 00:27:04

We have an ongoing relationship

with, um, hugging face, uh, and

480

: 00:27:09

they are, one of the lead lead tech

companies on the on the circuit.

481

: 00:27:15

And, uh, they come in regularly

and do workshops with the agency

482

: 00:27:21

to make sure that we're, up

to speed on the latest tech.

483

: 00:27:25

As MidJourney and Dali have really

caught on, especially in the world of

484

: 00:27:30

art direction, we've just made sure that

every art director in the building is

485

: 00:27:36

proficient in, MidJourney and Dali,

just to make sure that, our comps are

486

: 00:27:41

super tight and we can do things You

know, a lot faster and we can just move

487

: 00:27:46

at the speed of technology and culture.

488

: 00:27:51

Brian: That's a.

489

: 00:27:51

I don't want to say it's scary because

it's so exciting, but you don't know

490

: 00:27:55

what you don't know, so where do you

draw the lines and how do you let

491

: 00:27:59

people play and still not make mistakes

that could be, really impactful.

492

: 00:28:05

Margaret: Yeah, it's,

it's all, it's all true.

493

: 00:28:08

I mean, you have to approach

it with a conscience.

494

: 00:28:14

Right?

495

: 00:28:15

Brian: Way to put it.

496

: 00:28:16

Yeah.

497

: 00:28:16

John: Well, I'm comforted too by , your

point that you're urging your creative

498

: 00:28:20

directors to embrace it and kind of

run, run to the fire, like you said.

499

: 00:28:24

Because I think a natural reaction

would be to kind of like, Oh,

500

: 00:28:29

no, let's, let's push away.

501

: 00:28:31

Let's say that's not a good thing.

502

: 00:28:32

We shouldn't go down that path.

503

: 00:28:34

Let's do what we've always done.

504

: 00:28:35

Margaret: You can see those creatives who

aren't embracing it getting left behind.

505

: 00:28:41

you really do have to just reframe

your perspective and approach

506

: 00:28:45

everything with a beginner's mind.

507

: 00:28:47

And just know that, you know, on

the tech front, things are, they're

508

: 00:28:51

changing and they're changing fast.

509

: 00:28:53

And if you're not embracing, then

you're going to be left behind.

510

: 00:28:56

Brian: What other exciting things do you

see out there about how brands can reach

511

: 00:29:00

and interact with, with consumers today.

512

: 00:29:02

Yeah.

513

: 00:29:04

Margaret: The, the most interesting

thing to me is that there is a lot less.

514

: 00:29:09

of that one way conversation,

like the fire hose effect, and

515

: 00:29:14

it's a lot more interactive.

516

: 00:29:16

So the brand, you know, throws

the ball and then the consumer

517

: 00:29:19

is throwing the ball back.

518

: 00:29:20

It's, it's fun.

519

: 00:29:22

It's a lot more, playful and interactive

and that's what you want, right?

520

: 00:29:26

You want people to love your

brand and want to be a part of it.

521

: 00:29:30

That's what's going to make them.

522

: 00:29:32

Talk about it and want

to buy your products.

523

: 00:29:36

So again, like a good guide is

just make sure you're making

524

: 00:29:41

stuff people care about.

525

: 00:29:43

So then they'll throw the ball back.

526

: 00:29:46

John: Margaret, I've heard, Rich

Silverstein say that clients

527

: 00:29:51

get the work they deserve.

528

: 00:29:53

And I've heard him say,

yeah, as someone who.

529

: 00:29:58

You know, personally, I've always

been kind of turned off by seeing

530

: 00:30:00

clients who treat their marketing

partners poorly or like a commodity.

531

: 00:30:05

Um, I've always really liked that

sentiment, and I was wondering if

532

: 00:30:08

you could talk a little bit about

what makes a great client partner.

533

: 00:30:12

You've talked about the Super Bowl

ads and how early you start and

534

: 00:30:15

how you've been very able to kind

of navigate, uh, tough creative

535

: 00:30:19

decisions in the moment with them.

536

: 00:30:20

But what, on their side, what are the

characteristics of a good client partner?

537

: 00:30:26

Margaret: Transparency

is a big part of it.

538

: 00:30:28

Like being really clear with your agency.

539

: 00:30:31

On what's the objective?

540

: 00:30:33

Is it to sit in the middle of culture?

541

: 00:30:36

Is it to drive sales?

542

: 00:30:39

And if so, what's that mark?

543

: 00:30:41

What goal are we trying to achieve?

544

: 00:30:44

Because without that information,

you know, creative is just

545

: 00:30:48

that it's just creative.

546

: 00:30:49

So you kind of need to have that goal in

mind when you're from the very beginning,

547

: 00:30:54

when you're even thinking of of the ideas.

548

: 00:30:56

And I think just being, really

honest even when it's hard.

549

: 00:31:02

So, you know, I think a lot of times

clients will, when in a situation, where

550

: 00:31:06

they're giving feedback, they aren't maybe

as brutally honest as, as they should be.

551

: 00:31:13

It ends up being a disservice if you

sugarcoat things especially in the

552

: 00:31:16

case of something like Super Bowl,

times of the essence and you're

553

: 00:31:19

moving quickly and there's a lot of

mistake and you want to make sure

554

: 00:31:22

that everyone is, on the same page.

555

: 00:31:24

That's how you're going to be successful.

556

: 00:31:28

Brian: Um, what are some of the ways that

kind of a support model has changed in,

557

: 00:31:34

in terms of like your creative resources,

that you put in place to support a

558

: 00:31:39

brand, you know, is the makeup of those.

559

: 00:31:41

That staff, has it changed or

do you need different types

560

: 00:31:45

of resources to support them

561

: 00:31:47

Margaret: well.

562

: 00:31:48

For us, our innovation labs a

big part of every brief now.

563

: 00:31:54

So it used to be that, the strategy

department would present, the

564

: 00:31:58

creatives with a brief and that's

the way it would all begin.

565

: 00:32:02

But now we bring in our innovation

lab from the very beginning because

566

: 00:32:05

we want tech to be a part of every

idea that we put out into the world.

567

: 00:32:11

John: I gather from everything you've been

saying about technology and, traditional

568

: 00:32:15

creative skill sets, there are probably

some really rewarding campaigns recently

569

: 00:32:22

that have combined those things, anything

recently that stands out in terms of

570

: 00:32:26

being super rewarding because it does

bridge, the human creative components

571

: 00:32:31

and the emotional touch along with a

real strong interactive component.

572

: 00:32:36

Margaret: Yeah, well, for me personally,

I, and this, we kind of came up with

573

: 00:32:41

this idea in the agency, but I have

a nonprofit with my daughter called

574

: 00:32:45

Daughters of the Evolution, and,

um, it all kind of started with.

575

: 00:32:51

Us doing a panel at Cannes about

they had asked me to do a panel

576

: 00:32:55

about being a woman in advertising.

577

: 00:32:57

And at the time, my daughter was 9 and

said, that sounds like a really boring

578

: 00:33:06

John: Thanks for the

vote of confidence, honey

579

: 00:33:09

Margaret: And I was like, you know what?

580

: 00:33:10

And she's like, you've already

done that talk a million times.

581

: 00:33:12

And I was like, okay, you're right.

582

: 00:33:14

, well, maybe they'd rather , listen

to, to what you have to say.

583

: 00:33:17

And so we ended up inviting, five CCOs

and their daughters, all different ages.

584

: 00:33:22

Up on stage, it can to hear

their perspective on that thing.

585

: 00:33:25

We came out of that.

586

: 00:33:26

My daughter and I were

like, you know what?

587

: 00:33:27

We're going to make

daughters of the evolution.

588

: 00:33:29

We're going to turn that into a nonprofit.

589

: 00:33:32

And so we did that.

590

: 00:33:33

And the first.

591

: 00:33:34

Thing that we put out into the world was,

an AR app and, , it was kind of born out

592

: 00:33:40

of my daughter who, came home one day and

was like, why is it that there are no?

593

: 00:33:45

Women in this history

book that I'm studying.

594

: 00:33:48

And so I went to the innovation

lab and I was like, this, this has

595

: 00:33:52

to be like easy for us to solve.

596

: 00:33:54

We're never going to change

the actual textbook, right?

597

: 00:33:57

But if we could create

just like a simple AR app.

598

: 00:34:01

So if you hovered over the picture of.

599

: 00:34:04

Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, or

all the faces that you're used to seeing

600

: 00:34:08

in these history books, and you were,

um, served up an image and a story of a

601

: 00:34:12

woman that you probably never heard of,

but did something equally cool around

602

: 00:34:16

that same time, that has to be possible.

603

: 00:34:18

And they were like, that's 100 percent

possible because, there weren't that

604

: 00:34:22

many photographs taken back then, so.

605

: 00:34:25

We can create an app that will

register all those photos.

606

: 00:34:29

We'll just feed those photos into

the app and every book has the

607

: 00:34:32

same photos because there just

weren't that many being taken and,

608

: 00:34:36

John: cool idea.

609

: 00:34:38

Margaret: but that's how we came up

with Lessons in Her Story and, you know,

610

: 00:34:41

we launched it at South by Southwest.

611

: 00:34:43

Uh, and immediately, like, Davos picked

it up, and it kind of spread like

612

: 00:34:48

wildfire, the Smithsonian was interested,

and, that one is, for me, personally,

613

: 00:34:53

one that, that I'm really proud of.

614

: 00:34:55

Brian: That's incredible.

615

: 00:34:55

John: It really is.

616

: 00:34:56

That's a fantastic

617

: 00:34:57

Margaret: All right, that was kind

of a long story, a long answer.

618

: 00:35:00

John: it's a great story, and I

love that it originated with an

619

: 00:35:05

observation from your daughter.

620

: 00:35:06

That's really neat.

621

: 00:35:07

Margaret: Yeah.

622

: 00:35:08

John: so, speaking of that, can we

talk about the 3 percent Movement?

623

: 00:35:10

I know that that's an initiative that

is committed to addressing the fact that

624

: 00:35:14

women and people of color are incredibly

underrepresented in senior creative roles.

625

: 00:35:18

Can you talk about some of the progress

that movement's made, and how close it's

626

: 00:35:22

getting to what remains a tremendous gap?

627

: 00:35:25

Margaret: Well, it's amazing to me

that like 80 percent of all, purchase

628

: 00:35:30

decisions are made by, by women.

629

: 00:35:33

and there are so few women that are

at the top, , on the creative side.

630

: 00:35:37

And that's, we have made progress.

631

: 00:35:39

When I got involved in 3%, that's,

that's actually what that stat.

632

: 00:35:42

Represented when there were only 3

percent of the creative directors in

633

: 00:35:45

the industry were women at the time.

634

: 00:35:47

And I think we're up to

12 percent or something.

635

: 00:35:50

So we are, we are making progress,

but we're still still work to be done.

636

: 00:35:54

But I admire Kat Gordon.

637

: 00:35:56

She is the 1 who really spearheaded

that whole effort in the beginning

638

: 00:36:00

and invited me to be a part of it.

639

: 00:36:01

At the very, very beginning, I was a

part of the, , very 1st conference and,

640

: 00:36:06

she's just made a tremendous

impact on the industry.

641

: 00:36:09

John: That's cool.

642

: 00:36:10

Yeah, I saw on the website that, is

there something like only like four

643

: 00:36:13

categories where men are actually the

primary decision maker, but everything

644

: 00:36:17

else it's, it's, you know, it's equal

or majority female decided, right?

645

: 00:36:22

Margaret: Yep.

646

: 00:36:23

Yeah,

647

: 00:36:26

John: So, contrast that with still

how far away it is from 50 50 split

648

: 00:36:31

in terms of chief creative officers.

649

: 00:36:32

It's amazing.

650

: 00:36:34

Margaret: I'm really proud of, you

know, at our agency, when I became a

651

: 00:36:39

partner, I was one, the only woman, but

one of, I think it was six at the time.

652

: 00:36:47

And, um, now we're 50 50.

653

: 00:36:50

So I'm proud of that.

654

: 00:36:52

Brian: Can you tell us a little bit about

, your own career journey trajectory,

655

: 00:36:56

um, at Goodby and, you know, how you've

moved along the way and, some of the

656

: 00:37:01

important people that have kind of

helped you get to where you are today.

657

: 00:37:06

Margaret: Yeah, I mean,

I started at the bottom.

658

: 00:37:12

Uh, well, actually, this is

kind of an interesting story.

659

: 00:37:14

When I was at the portfolio center,

I went to an ad school after

660

: 00:37:20

I got out of UNC Chapel Hill.

661

: 00:37:22

And, um, I used to

follow this art director.

662

: 00:37:26

His name was, uh, Jeremy Foster.

663

: 00:37:28

And I always loved his work because

it didn't feel like advertising.

664

: 00:37:33

It felt very editorial and artistic.

665

: 00:37:35

And.

666

: 00:37:36

I was, I just always

wanted to, to do that.

667

: 00:37:40

I wanted to make my stuff look like that.

668

: 00:37:42

And, um, so let's say I loosely patterned

my portfolio after his and guess what?

669

: 00:37:49

I sent him my portfolio and he liked

it and he hired me for my first job.

670

: 00:37:55

Uh, he worked at Litter Bonnie Handley,

Barton Kelly and Providence Rhode Island.

671

: 00:37:58

And, he had grown up at Goodby

Silverstein and Partners and He was now

672

: 00:38:04

working at this little shop that was

run by David Lubar's in Providence, and

673

: 00:38:09

pretty much as soon as I got there, he

moved back to San Francisco and took his

674

: 00:38:15

old job back at, uh, Goodby Silverstein.

675

: 00:38:17

And, uh, so I ended up leaving Providence.

676

: 00:38:20

I went to Dallas.

677

: 00:38:21

I worked for a guy named Grant Richards,

who then, like, almost as soon as I

678

: 00:38:25

got there, left and came to, To GSP and

then these two guys brought me here.

679

: 00:38:30

So that's how I actually landed at GSP.

680

: 00:38:35

And then, like I said, I just kind

of worked my way up from the bottom.

681

: 00:38:38

I started out as a junior art

director and then just over

682

: 00:38:42

time kind of worked my way up.

683

: 00:38:47

John: So that's a pretty rare

situation where you've got someone

684

: 00:38:51

who's a chief creative officer

whose tenure is not exclusively

685

: 00:38:55

but largely at the same agency.

686

: 00:38:57

I know agency folks tend to hop

around a lot, um, so I think that

687

: 00:39:01

must be a testament to kind of the

relationships you've built there.

688

: 00:39:04

Margaret: Well, I had great,

I had two great teachers.

689

: 00:39:07

John: yeah, so that was, that was the

other part of the, Brian's question and

690

: 00:39:11

the one I'm curious about too is like, you

know, who, who's kind of lifted you up?

691

: 00:39:14

I know you like to lift

others while you're rising.

692

: 00:39:16

Who's lifted you up?

693

: 00:39:18

Margaret: You know, Rich and Jeff

are incredible teachers, mentors.

694

: 00:39:23

They've just always been,

they advocate for great ideas.

695

: 00:39:27

They, aren't too hands on,

but help you when you need it.

696

: 00:39:30

And I don't know, I'm just really

fortunate that I had both of them kind

697

: 00:39:35

of watching after me along the way.

698

: 00:39:38

. Brian: What advice do you have for

young creatives kind of getting into the

699

: 00:39:40

business and into the industry overall?

700

: 00:39:44

Margaret: Stay hungry.

701

: 00:39:45

I was telling the story, to a group

of, we have a school here called the

702

: 00:39:49

Academy, an in house advertising school.

703

: 00:39:52

And I was telling the incoming

class that they were like, well,

704

: 00:39:57

what do you mean stay hungry?

705

: 00:39:59

And I was like, okay, here's an

example when I was at UNC Chapel Hill.

706

: 00:40:04

I was in the advertising sequence, but

the program was really geared towards

707

: 00:40:09

newspaper writing and I took a class

at Parsons School Design in New York

708

: 00:40:13

during summer school and then realized

that, okay, I'm supposed to be on.

709

: 00:40:19

The other side, not the writing side,

but I want to be on the art side and

710

: 00:40:23

I need to put a portfolio together and

they just didn't offer that at Carolina.

711

: 00:40:28

And so the day I was leaving New

York, and this will date me, but I

712

: 00:40:32

like tore out the yellow pages out

of a phone book that was on out on

713

: 00:40:37

the street in front of my apartment.

714

: 00:40:39

And I took it back with me to Chapel Hill.

715

: 00:40:42

And I was like, okay, I have to figure

out how to put this portfolio together.

716

: 00:40:45

I'm just going to call all

these agencies and ask someone.

717

: 00:40:48

And so I started cold calling all

these advertising agencies in New York.

718

: 00:40:53

Now, I mean, if you think about

it, like J Walter Thompson and BBDO

719

: 00:40:58

New York at the time were giant.

720

: 00:41:01

giant agencies.

721

: 00:41:03

And here I am in my dorm

room in Chapel Hill calling.

722

: 00:41:06

I'm like, Hey, may I speak to

someone in the creative department?

723

: 00:41:09

And they're like, anyone?

724

: 00:41:11

I'm like, yeah, anyone.

725

: 00:41:13

They're like, okay.

726

: 00:41:16

Put me through.

727

: 00:41:16

Some poor soul answers the phone.

728

: 00:41:18

And I'm like, Hey, I'm a student at

the University of North Carolina.

729

: 00:41:22

And I'm just curious, like, where do you

put those portfolios together that people

730

: 00:41:26

have that want to get into advertising?

731

: 00:41:28

And And 9 out of 10 creatives said

there's a school in Atlanta that

732

: 00:41:35

helps people put portfolios together.

733

: 00:41:36

It's called the Portfolio Center.

734

: 00:41:38

So, then I had my answer.

735

: 00:41:39

But that, I probably called 40 agencies.

736

: 00:41:45

Brian: God,

737

: 00:41:46

Margaret: The kind of like hunger

that I like to see and people, you

738

: 00:41:50

know, when I'm interviewing them,

cause I know those people really

739

: 00:41:53

care and they really want it.

740

: 00:41:54

John: Does anyone still do that?

741

: 00:41:56

Do you, have you ever

gotten a call like that?

742

: 00:41:57

Or is it all just LinkedIn and

743

: 00:41:59

Margaret: No, I think I'm the only

crazy one crazy enough to do that.

744

: 00:42:02

Brian: You know, you definitely had

to work a lot harder back then in

745

: 00:42:04

terms of, finding people, you know,

picking up the phone and having to

746

: 00:42:08

call people and, , much less back

then having to print and mail all your

747

: 00:42:11

resumes around to spend your portfolio.

748

: 00:42:14

Yeah,

749

: 00:42:15

John: but, but, but you could stand

out with a phone call a little bit

750

: 00:42:18

easier than you probably can today

with a LinkedIn connection request,

751

: 00:42:23

maybe.

752

: 00:42:23

All

753

: 00:42:26

Margaret: Yeah, it's true.

754

: 00:42:26

John: right, so let's bring back

yellow pages, phone booths, and hunger.

755

: 00:42:30

I think that's what we've learned today.

756

: 00:42:34

Margaret: Stay hungry.

757

: 00:42:34

That's right.

758

: 00:42:35

John: Margaret, we had a lot of questions

we wanted to ask you, and I think we

759

: 00:42:39

covered almost all of them, and you've

been so good at answering them, and

760

: 00:42:45

just interesting stories and fantastic

perspectives, so thank you so much.

761

: 00:42:50

It's been great.

762

: 00:42:51

Margaret: Thanks so much for

asking me to be on the podcast.

763

: 00:42:55

John: Beyond thrilled to have you.

764

: 00:42:57

And I feel like maybe with your,

uh, celebrity connections, maybe

765

: 00:43:00

you could help us with one of our

hopelessly unattainable guests.

766

: 00:43:03

We end each episode with a open

letter to a hopelessly unattainable

767

: 00:43:07

guest, and we are 0 for 10 so far,

and we'll, we'll send you the list,

768

: 00:43:12

Margaret: Okay, great.

769

: 00:43:13

Send it over.

770

: 00:43:15

I'll do what I can.

771

: 00:43:17

John: open some doors for us.

772

: 00:43:18

Brian: All right, thank you very much.

773

: 00:43:20

Margaret: Thanks, you guys.

774

: 00:43:21

That was fun.

775

: 00:43:21

John: Thanks, Margaret.

776

: 00:43:22

Brian: All right.

777

: 00:43:23

That was fantastic.

778

: 00:43:24

John.

779

: 00:43:25

That was

780

: 00:43:26

John: She's great.

781

: 00:43:27

Brian: Yeah.

782

: 00:43:28

Yeah.

783

: 00:43:28

She's wonderful.

784

: 00:43:29

Great perspective.

785

: 00:43:31

Um, Really awesome to talk to somebody

who's, in that seat and, making real

786

: 00:43:36

decisions that we see every day.

787

: 00:43:39

John: Yeah.

788

: 00:43:39

Talk about making decisions

at the top of an industry.

789

: 00:43:43

Brian: Yeah.

790

: 00:43:44

Yeah.

791

: 00:43:44

It's awesome.

792

: 00:43:45

John: All right.

793

: 00:43:45

Speaking top of, uh, industries.

794

: 00:43:47

You got any, uh, top talent

you're trying to bring in to,

795

: 00:43:50

to be a guest in the future?

796

: 00:43:52

Brian: Yeah.

797

: 00:43:53

Yeah.

798

: 00:43:53

Yeah.

799

: 00:43:53

I think I got a good target for us.

800

: 00:43:55

You know, uh, it might be, it

might be a tough catch, but,

801

: 00:44:00

let's see what we can do.

802

: 00:44:00

I am targeting, uh, Mr.

803

: 00:44:02

Tiger Woods.

804

: 00:44:04

John: Ooh!

805

: 00:44:04

Good.

806

: 00:44:06

Brian: So, uh, let me read my plea here.

807

: 00:44:10

,

John: Please do, because so far they've been real effective.

808

: 00:44:15

Brian: yes.

809

: 00:44:16

John: Alright, this is the one that gets,

this is the one that lands the big fish.

810

: 00:44:19

Go ahead.

811

: 00:44:19

Come on.

812

: 00:44:20

Brian: All right.

813

: 00:44:21

Dear tiger woods.

814

: 00:44:22

I can't believe I'm writing

you to join my podcast.

815

: 00:44:25

It's a dream come true.

816

: 00:44:27

Back in the day of the kid graduating

from college, as you were beginning

817

: 00:44:30

to demolish the PGA tour, I attempted

to sell a humor piece, speaking

818

: 00:44:33

to other golfers to conspire, to

take you down a lot, Julius Caesar.

819

: 00:44:37

You were too good for the game.

820

: 00:44:39

No one else could get any attention.

821

: 00:44:41

It was all tiger all the time.

822

: 00:44:43

Everyone else was irrelevant.

823

: 00:44:45

No one ever published my

article for good reason.

824

: 00:44:48

Your existence in golf brought all

players and the game to a level.

825

: 00:44:52

I had never seen more money, more

sponsors, more TV, larger events.

826

: 00:44:56

Everyone benefited in your

excellence before you.

827

: 00:45:00

It was nice to be , competitive

most weeks on tour with you.

828

: 00:45:03

You expected to win every single time.

829

: 00:45:05

You're a super legend that we

definitely won't see again.

830

: 00:45:09

We're both at inflection

points in our lives, Tiger.

831

: 00:45:11

You're less than two years away from

the senior circuit, the champions tour.

832

: 00:45:15

How crazy is that?

833

: 00:45:16

I know I hate talking about age too.

834

: 00:45:19

You recently parted ways with Nike

after an incredible 27 year run and

835

: 00:45:23

just launched a questionable new brand

with Taylor made called Sunday red.

836

: 00:45:28

Featuring a weird looking tiger

print animal, but good for you.

837

: 00:45:31

We all need to take risks.

838

: 00:45:33

Let's talk about it together on

this podcast, Snap Decisions.

839

: 00:45:36

This time you won't have to

look for any knives in the back.

840

: 00:45:40

Sincerely, Brian and John.

841

: 00:45:42

John: There's a lot going on there.

842

: 00:45:43

I'm not sure about my name on that one.

843

: 00:45:47

Wait, was it positive?

844

: 00:45:49

Brian: Yeah,

845

: 00:45:50

John: I heard you make

fun of his new brand.

846

: 00:45:52

Uh, I heard that you wrote a humor

piece trying to take him down.

847

: 00:45:56

Brian: I did.

848

: 00:45:57

John: okay.

849

: 00:45:57

Um, okay.

850

: 00:45:59

Yeah.

851

: 00:46:00

I, how could he say no?

852

: 00:46:07

Yep.

853

: 00:46:08

Print it.

854

: 00:46:08

Ship it.

855

: 00:46:12

Why don't you put your return

address on that one, would you?

856

: 00:46:18

Brian: All right.

857

: 00:46:18

We'll let you know how that makes it out.

858

: 00:46:21

John: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, our

audience will know when they see,

859

: 00:46:24

, future podcasts featuring Tiger Woods.

860

: 00:46:28

Brian: All right.

861

: 00:46:29

Until next time.

862

: 00:46:30

John: Have a good day!

863

: 00:46:33

Brian: See you later.

864

: 00:46:34

Let's shut it down.