Episode 12

full
Published on:

20th Mar 2024

Speed to Victory: CX leader Jay Baer

Welcome to the show, Jay Baer! The CX expert drops in on the show to talk about his latest book, The Time to Win. He also gives his riffs on AI, his process for building a book and collecting all those great stories and examples. That and more from a leading speaker on the marketing circuit and also one of the country’s top tequila influencers. Brian gets John’s reaction to the recent Wendy’s dynamic pricing news. John’s shoots for Mars with his Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(01:04): Oh, Wendy’s

(09:11): Jay Baer joins the show

(20:05): Responding quickly…but not too quickly

(27:16): Being fast doesn’t always mean being free

(37:36): How AI will impact customer experiences

(44:24): Chasing tequila 

(51:45): Hopefully Unattainable Rocket ships

Background content

Surge Pricing is Coming to More Menus Near You - Wall Street Journal

Wendy’s planning Uber-style ‘surge pricing’ where burger prices fluctuate based on demand - NY Post

No, Wendy’s Says It Isn’t Planning to Introduce Surge Pricing - NPR

Verizon’s new CX leader wants to quash customer pain points - Fierce Wireless

JayBaer.com

The Time to Win

The Time to Win - Amazon

Talk Triggers - Amazon

Tequila Jay Baer

Tequila Jay Baer - Instagram

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Transcript
Brian:

Hey, John.

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Welcome back.

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John: Hey, hey, good to see you, Brian.

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Brian: Good to see you.

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Uh, I heard you moved

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John: I moved.

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Nothing, nothing like a good

move to cleanse your heart,

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your soul, and your house.

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Brian: a good, uh, buyers

and sellers experience.

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John: all things considered,

it was a relatively smooth

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experience, but I'm tired.

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Tired and disorganized.

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Brian: I think everybody I've talked

to that moves says I'm not moving

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again ever for the rest of my life.

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Full stop.

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John: Those words may have escaped

my lips a few times in the past week.

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Die in this house and then

you can just set it aflame.

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Brian: Well, I think, uh, speaking

of experiences, , we have a

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really good show today that really

gets into, consumer experience.

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John: Yes.

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Brian: And, , our guest, , Jay Baer

is an expert in consumer experience

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and CX and, um, business growth.

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And so really excited to talk to him.

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before we do that, I want to hop

in here and talk about some news

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we're seeing, , on technology

relating to the consumer experience.

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So, recently on an investor call, Wendy's.

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The fast food chain announced plans

next year to release new technology that

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would help facilitate dynamic pricing,

so that local stores could change menu

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costs as they needed or wanted to.

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News outlets jumped all over this and

started touting it as surge pricing, you

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know, kind of like when Uber or airline

jacks up costs when demand is the highest.

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John: they sure did.

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Brian: Yeah, and so not surprisingly,

there's an immediate backlash

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and concerns of price gouging.

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Inflation, obviously, as well,

has been a serious concern for

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people everywhere, so the timing

of this could not have been worse.

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Jokes flew around social media

that the only time to go to

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Wendy's would be between 2 and 4 p.

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m.

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And, uh, according to the New

York Post, Wendy's now ranks

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already as the most expensive fast

food chain in the United States.

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John: Oh,

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Brian: After already inflating

their, um, menu costs 35 percent

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over the last couple of years,

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and, one more not surprising thing.

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immediately, Wendy's tried

to clarify what it had meant.

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They said that they would not be

implementing such type pricing with

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this new technology or would they change

prices when demand is the highest?

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Instead, they were saying that,

they would attempt to bring in new

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customers by actually lowering prices

or offering specials when demand is

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low, ultimate spin spin zone here.

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John, So, what do you think the takeaway

is here for brands as they look to

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improve their business through technology?

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And, should consumers trust how brands

continue to evolve and grow, uh, their

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businesses and as they use technology?

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John: right.

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Well, first of all, I think the

brand should stop using technology

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to manufacture hype before they've

thought through how they're actually

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going to use it, which I think

was the case here with Wendy's.

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And there's a real corporate

communications lesson

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to be learned in this.

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, when you called my attention to this, I

went back and I read the original quote,

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which was from the CEO, Kirk Tanner,

during that quarterly earnings call.

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And he said, beginning as early as

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enhanced features like dynamic

pricing and day part offerings.

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Of course, everyone would

interpret, quote, dynamic pricing

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and day part offerings to mean

surge pricing's coming, right?

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And Corporate Communications 101 would

have told them to manage that message.

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So either, you know, their Corporate

Communications team did say, Don't say

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it like this or the CEO ignored it.

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I would guess or they actually

were planning to do surge pricing.

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So what a what a mess.

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I guess , if the intention was actually

about getting smart around offering

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day part discounts, that's great.

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But if they were seriously considering

turning their menu into a Russian roulette

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of pricing, I think that's stupid.

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That whole concept is just at odds

with what I would say is the core

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promise of any fast food restaurant,

which is predictability, right?

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Promotions, cool.

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Everyone does that, right?

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Let's get people into

stores when stores are slow.

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Brian: Yeah.

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What they weren't doing was A system

that automatically changes the price.

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I mean, they were definitely giving local

stores more control over the ability

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to change price, which they already do.

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I mean, like the cost of a hamburger at

a Wendy's in New York costs different

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than a hamburger in South Carolina.

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So, it's not like they're going

to be sitting in in headquarters,

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surgically changing prices by the

minute based off the amount of cars

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that are in the drive through line.

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So, I don't know that they were

going full Uber on this, but,

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the look of this is brutal.

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So, like you said, uh, this is not

a good look for their communications

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team, which by the way, was probably

saying exactly what you were saying

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and they probably get rid of the rules.

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John: Yeah, that's my guess.

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Alright, so can I pivot to another

story that I noticed that's about

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that idea of using technologies

to improve a customer experience?

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Brian: Sure.

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John: Sure.

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Alright.

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I just saw that Verizon One of America's

favorite punching bags, just created

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a new chief customer experience

officer role for someone named Brian

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Higgins and recruited a Walmart

executive, Dory Butler SV as SVP of CX.

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Now, I don't know Brian or

Dory, but congratulations

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and good luck to them both.

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That is a big, big and

probably thankless job.

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So Ryan, thinking about Verizon in the

past, how, in your mind, how have they

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traditionally positioned themselves?

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What are they focused on?

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Brian: Network quality.

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John: Correct.

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Well, these moves are intended

to make customer experience, also

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a competitive differentiator.

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, just like they did around network quality.

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So, Verizon has now brought all of its

customer care teams together under one

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department, which I kind of thought

they would have done a while ago,

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but good that they're doing it now.

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, and they're saying that nearly 75% Of

their customer care calls are small,

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but kind of annoying issues that came

from some sort of, you know, small

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break in their customer experience, and

they're saying that a I will play a big

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role in Verizon's customer care event.

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So with all the news and the

commotion around AI these days,

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I think this is where there's

some really interesting promise.

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So according to, This new head of customer

experience, there are more than 10, 000

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articles in Verizon's knowledge base

that provide informational promotions or

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problems that a customer may be having.

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So AI can synthesize all that info

and deliver it to the customer

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service reps in real time.

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and personally, I love the

idea of talking to a human who

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understands what I'm looking for.

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And has AI in the background,

helping them focus on being more

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helpful, empathetic, and, expert.

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And if they got 10, 000 articles at their

disposal, though, that's getting clearly

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synthesized by AI, they'll be more expert.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Well, let me just say one

thing about AI, and I love it.

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And that's great, but they

couldn't be doing this without AI.

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Like AI can just make it go faster.

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If they have those

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John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Brian: Throwing the AI on top

of this to make it prettier and

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put a nice little bow on it.

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Some lipstick is great.

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John: You think it's just you think it's just prettifying it

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Brian: Well, I mean, it'll make it go

faster, but at the same time, like, why

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couldn't they have already been using

the database of all these articles?

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I

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John: well because because the database

of the articles sure it's there but having

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something really quickly figuring out

what my problem is and what's unique about

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my problem and based on all the archives

pull the right exact information for me is

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something I think you're asking an awful

lot of customer service rep who maybe went

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through a, you know, Few weeks or months

of training and it's new to the job.

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Brian: I mean, look, if you want to be a

Verizon apologist about that, that's fine.

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It shouldn't be that difficult.

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A lot of these things

are internal problems.

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And so, yeah, can you get an AI to

help feed them the answers quickly?

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Yes.

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But you're enabling people to not do

the extra work to understand , what

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the problems are to begin with, but

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John: Well, yeah.

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And I would argue that if you've talked

to, many organizations, customer service

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reps, you realize they haven't been

properly trained and they don't have

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all the information at the fingertips.

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So if that means I get less frustrated

and I spend less time screaming,

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uh, at a, at a phone tree, cool.

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Uh, and I would have to say, I think

that's the first time anyone has

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ever called me a Verizon apologist.

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Brian: that is, is working towards you

trying to improve the experience is great.

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I like that they're bringing the teams

together, which, you know, Ted, why

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didn't that happen in 2000, but Hey.

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You bring it in new people.

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They're coming up with new ideas

and I'm sure there's a good reason

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why they were separate, but,

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John: well, you've been in corporate

America, you know, they probably

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were together and then they got

separated and then we got pulled

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back together and separated and

now they're back together again.

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Brian: completely.

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all right, well, from there,

let's go to our guests.

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John: he's gonna be so

much more interesting than

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me, the Verizon apologist.

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Brian: Uh,

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I'm beyond excited to introduce,

our guest for today's episode.

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He's an expert in customer

experience and business growth.

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He's a researcher and author,

a founder, a podcaster.

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He's in the professional speakers

hall of fame, a top 30 global

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guru in CX and internet marketing.

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He's my favorite keynote at a conference.

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You're going to love him.

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He's relatable, he's

funny, and he makes sense.

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His past books like Utility, Hug

Your Haters, and Talk Triggers

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are companions for every marketer.

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His latest book is called The

Time to Win, which focuses on

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businesses taking advantage of

speed of service while they can.

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And I don't want to leave this out.

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He's now a major tequila influencer.

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So let's invite in some

conversation with Jay Baer.

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Jay, we're so happy to

have you on the show today.

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John: Hey, Jay.

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Jay: be here.

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Hey everybody.

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How you doing?

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Thanks for having me on the show.

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John: Thanks for joining us

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Brian: Yeah, I really appreciate it.

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So, let's get into this

book, the time to win.

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You know, businesses today face

so many challenges to reach

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and interact with customers.

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We always talk about the amount

of noise and distractions today.

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There's too much going

on in everybody's world.

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You're focused on responsiveness

for businesses and the

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need to build a Sure of it.

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So it's so important if you don't act

quickly, you're going to miss out.

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The value of time is, uh, incomprehensible

and, if you don't do this right, how can

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customers even trust you to do the job

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Jay: Yeah.

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I mean, you've probably heard the

phrase good, fast, cheap, pick any two.

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It's pretty common business parlance.

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You know, doesn't really work anymore

because you can decide whether

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you want to be cheap and fast.

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Or quality and fast, but fast is non

negotiable, generally speaking, right?

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That's one that you kind

of have to do that one.

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And then you can pick whether

you want to be the, you know,

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you want to be Jiffy lube, right?

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Or you want to be, uh, you

know, the opposite, which

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is emergency plumber, right?

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It's going to, you know, they'll

come, they'll come Sunday night.

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But it's going to cost you, right?

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Speed is no longer kind of an

optional exercise for most businesses.

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And, and look, I wrote the book just

when AI, um, as we currently think

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about it was, was breaking and the

implications for AI on expectations

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around response are going to be.

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Overwhelming, right?

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I mean, it just everything can happen so

much faster without human intervention.

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And so the culture is going to ratchet

up even more around speed expectations.

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John: Yeah.

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And Jay, before we go too much

further, I just have to say thank

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you for writing a business book

that is consumable in an hour.

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If I have a

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Jay: it.

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I mean, the book is only like,

I don't know, it's like:

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words or something, right?

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Jay: to do it that way, John.

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I've written six other business books

that are like, you know, traditional size.

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And I started writing this one.

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I'm like, wait a second, hold on.

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I can't write a full length

business book that requires the

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reader to invest five or six hours.

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What's the book about speed.

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That doesn't, it doesn't

make any sense, right?

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It's like the exact opposite of

the advice contained in the pages.

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Uh, so I'm like, wait a second.

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What if.

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I wrote a very short book that you

can read in under an hour that has

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all the meat and none of the fat.

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And it's actually been a really

interesting lesson, like how that

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book is merchandised and sold and

everything has been much different,

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of course, than a regular book.

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But people love it.

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Especially at events because you know

what sucks when you go to a conference

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and they give you like the hardcover

book from the keynote speaker and then

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you're trying to hold a book in one hand

and like drink a Chardonnay in the other

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hand and like shake hands with your third

hand like it's a very complicated dance.

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So this book is so small you put

it in your shirt pocket your jacket

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pocket your handbag whatever.

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Uh, I will say this, however,

and I, and I, I learned this.

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It's late and a hard way.

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It is a very hard book to sign

because it's so small and it's soft

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cover that it's hard for me to open

it and hold it open and sign it.

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So that, that part has actually been

a little bit of a hassle, but other

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than that, it's been successful

and I would do it again because you

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know, look, I'm, I'm not ashamed to

admit that most people, including me,

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don't actually read business books.

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Yeah.

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John: finished one.

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Jay: And they skim up and why not?

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Because I'm guilty of this too, right?

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In the first chapter, here's my thesis.

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And then you repeat that thesis 11 more

chapters in a slightly different way.

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Right.

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And that's just the nature of it.

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Right.

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But, but publishers trust me, cause I

worked with all the major publishers.

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They want that book to be 225 pages or

longer because that's the standard size

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that actual physical bookstores require.

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You know, this, we're writing books

this length because bookstores want

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them to be wide enough to be shelved.

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Like, is that the tail

wagging the dog or what?

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Brian: seriously?

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Jay: Well, I mean, look, I, I am an

author and I love books and I read books

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every day, but the last time I went to

a physical bookstore it's been a bit.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Did you have to have a rule in your head?

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Like, you know, sell yourself on keeping

something in or did you just kind of

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create an outline and just sparsely.

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Jay: It's funny, uh, actually I did it

the same way, Brian, that I do all my

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books actually, just with more rigor.

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So I, write books in a process that

is not unique, but certainly unusual

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compared to most business authors

in that I will write a speech.

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I go out and do that speech 25 or

40 times and then once I have the

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speech dialed, then I write the book

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John: Interesting.

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Yeah, that's

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Jay: a couple of reasons.

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John: That's backwards

for most people, right?

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Jay: Absolutely backwards.

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Uh, and I do it for a couple of reasons.

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One, it makes the book flow better

because it's got a narrative.

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It's got a beginning, a middle and an end.

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The way speech has a

beginning and middle and end.

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But the real reason I do it.

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I am allergic to using examples

that people have heard of before.

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So you'll never hear me talk about

Amazon or Starbucks or Apple or

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anything like that in any book I

ever write because it's so axiomatic.

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It's just boring, right?

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So, what I do is as I'm working out

this material, In every speech, I

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say, hope you enjoyed today's program.

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If you've got any examples of a company

that is faster than you expected them

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to be, or slower than you wanted them

to be, please, please, please, uh,

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come see me right after I finished.

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Cause I'm collecting

stories for my new book.

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And so almost all the stories that

I have in almost all my books came

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from audiences who, who saw me speak

or like, oh, I've got an example.

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And that's why I've got all

these weird, different industries

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from all over the world.

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And so in this case, all

I did was the same idea.

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I just didn't add more stuff.

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It was like, okay, instead of one example,

instead of five examples, let's do one.

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So essentially it's the

same format of a book.

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I just didn't add all the extra

ornaments on a Christmas tree.

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Brian: got it.

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I love your examples.

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Uh, I feel like they always

really reinforce your points

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John: Oh, yeah.

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The best smelling plumber in Los Angeles?

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Jay: Yeah.

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Mike diamond, Mike diamond

plumbers, smell good plumbers.

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That's on every truck.

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The funny thing about Mike diamond

plumbers is if you go to Google

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and search Mike diamond plumbers

and look at their reviews.

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Like all the reviews, like

he really did smell good.

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Like it's, it is, it is hilarious.

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They have a house cologne.

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They literally have a house cologne,

uh, for, for their plumbers.

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When you, when you get a job there,

they give you a little bottles.

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Like, this is what you're going to wear.

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John: So is that an example of

something that came from one

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of your audience members or is

that something you experienced

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Jay: So that particular example

came from Daniel Lemon, who co

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authored Talk Triggers with me.

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Daniel, uh, is an amazing thought

leader and, and has some other books

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of his own as well and, and worked very

closely with me as my head of strategy

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at my consulting firm for many years.

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He lives in Los Angeles and

so he literally needed a

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plumber, Mike Diamond plumbers.

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And he's like, wait, the Smogon plumber.

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And I'm writing a book

about word of mouth.

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Amazing.

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That, that, that example, like fell

into our lap, out of the sky, which

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are, which sometimes are the best ones.

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Brian: Of all the tidbits you've gotten

from like local companies and things for

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your books, which one's your favorite?

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Jay: Oh, geez.

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I've never been asked that before.

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And it's kind of

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Brian: Like thousands of them, so I

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John: Yeah, just just

pick from a catalog of

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Jay: I mean, I, I would say probably

the one that I go back to the most

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often, because I think it resonates with

people, is, is Skip's Kitchen, which is

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the, the restaurant in Sacramento, where

when you order your meal, They fan out a

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deck of playing cards face down in front

of you and you pick a card and if you

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get a joker, your entire meal is free.

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use that story a lot because it's

so easy to execute for businesses

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and it doesn't matter whether

you're in the restaurant business or

377

:

you're a chiropractor or whatever.

378

:

People understand the power.

379

:

Of that technique and how and why

it generates so much goodwill and so

380

:

much word of mouth for that business.

381

:

So I tend to use that example.

382

:

Because people really get it.

383

:

They're like, Oh, that is cool.

384

:

Oh, I understand how I

could possibly do that, etc.

385

:

Brian: that's cool.

386

:

Jay: But I have a whole database.

387

:

That's how I do it.

388

:

So I collect all the

389

:

Brian: Yeah.

390

:

Jay: And then I tag them.

391

:

So I have a whole like tagging system.

392

:

And so we tag them by B2B versus

B2C, big company, small company.

393

:

Is it word of mouth?

394

:

Is it customer experience?

395

:

Is it bad customer experience?

396

:

Um, et cetera.

397

:

You're kind of what's the shtick.

398

:

And then is it USA?

399

:

Is it Canada?

400

:

Is it international?

401

:

So.

402

:

When I get an assignment to do an

event, like I'm doing one for Bobcat,

403

:

um, the heavy equipment company in two

weeks, I can go into the database and

404

:

say, all right, what, what material

do I already have that might be

405

:

most appropriate for this industry?

406

:

And then if I don't feel like I've got

gold, then I'll go find some stuff.

407

:

Brian: That's, that's great.

408

:

I was doing some research last night and,

my kids were like, what are you doing?

409

:

And I showed them the, um,

the pasta playlist on Spotify

410

:

Jay: Isn't that amazing?

411

:

John: So cool.

412

:

Brian: Yeah.

413

:

Can you, can you tell that one real fast?

414

:

Jay: That's a relatively new one, um, that

they haven't been doing it too long and

415

:

I haven't been talking about it too long.

416

:

The thing about pasta is when you

make it perfectly it's perfect, but

417

:

when you make it imperfectly it sucks.

418

:

And what people don't understand very

often about dried pasta is that, of

419

:

course, there are many different shapes.

420

:

You got penne, you got

spaghetti, you got rigatoni, etc.

421

:

And they each have different densities.

422

:

Consequently, you really should

change your cook time slightly

423

:

based on the density of the

dried pasta that you're using.

424

:

But nobody talks about this

and nobody writes it down.

425

:

And so, um, Barilla, which is either

the first or second largest provider

426

:

of dried pasta, I'm not certain.

427

:

Was doing a lot of social

media, listening as you should.

428

:

And they realized that people were

like, sometimes aggravated about

429

:

the pasta, not coming out, right.

430

:

Undercooked, overcooked.

431

:

They're like, huh, how could we fix this?

432

:

So they, they went to Spotify and they

created a series of custom playlists.

433

:

One for spaghetti, one for

rigatoni, one for penne, et cetera.

434

:

So the way it works is

you boil your water.

435

:

As soon as the water is at a

rolling boil, you hit play,

436

:

you put the pasta in the water.

437

:

And the playlist is a whole

series of kind of Italian songs in

438

:

keeping with the theme of pasta.

439

:

The second the playlist is concluded,

last song is over, you take the pasta out

440

:

of the water and it is perfectly cooked

for that particular shape of pasta.

441

:

And hundreds of thousands of people

have downloaded these playlists.

442

:

I just think it's, of course,

doesn't cost anything.

443

:

It's just a really good example

of transcending the transaction,

444

:

which so much good marketing

really is rooted in that principle.

445

:

Brian: Yeah, it's, it's a

great experiential thing.

446

:

Just, you know, you're cooking pasta,

you're playing the Italian music.

447

:

John: Yeah, that's a it's a great example.

448

:

Jay, we go back to my talk

about your most recent book.

449

:

You talk about some examples where.

450

:

Too fast is a problem.

451

:

You know, you, you, obviously you, you

make the compelling case for businesses

452

:

need to evolve to become faster at

delivering great experiences, but too

453

:

fast is not what you want if you're going

to a tattoo artist and, and, and nothing

454

:

Jay: yeah, yeah,

455

:

or an eye, or an eye surgeon, or any

number of things, or a divorce attorney.

456

:

Um,

457

:

John: And you also talk about some of

the ways companies are kind of pretending

458

:

to take their sweet time to deliver

a thoughtful answer to, like, a chat

459

:

question, right, where you get little dots

or even, you know, you hear the little,

460

:

if you're on the phone call, you hear the

little do do do do do, you know, like, I'm

461

:

thinking, uh, even though AI is spitting

it out pretty much instantaneously.

462

:

Yeah.

463

:

Jay: yeah.

464

:

It's interesting, the reason I wrote

this book, well the reason I write

465

:

all books that I write is, is, I see

what I think is a pattern or a trend

466

:

or an opportunity for businesses

to outperform their competition.

467

:

And then I researched that trend,

doing a lot of first party research,

468

:

which costs me a ton of money, but you

know, I'm not just going to stand on

469

:

a stage and tell you to do something

if I'm just, I don't have any proof.

470

:

So as always, I did a bunch

of research on this topic.

471

:

And my thesis was coming

out of the pandemic, we care

472

:

about time more than ever.

473

:

And, and that how we use time.

474

:

is more precious to us

than it was pre pandemic.

475

:

And, and all these trends that we

were talking about in the early post

476

:

pandemic days, great resignation,

people working from home, not wanting

477

:

to commute, et cetera, all this stuff.

478

:

I was like, this is all the same trend.

479

:

Like this is all the same trend, which

is we care about time more than ever.

480

:

You can call it whatever you want.

481

:

And there's different

manifestations of that trend.

482

:

But the trend is that we care

about time more than ever.

483

:

I wonder if that's actually true

or I just think it's true and I did

484

:

the research and it is in fact true.

485

:

Two thirds of customers now say

that speed is as important as price.

486

:

And so the reality is when I talk

about this in the book and on stage

487

:

when I'm asking businesses to do It's

not overhaul your entire business.

488

:

It's elevate speed on your

list of priorities because

489

:

your customers already have.

490

:

And if you do that, all the data show that

customers will be happier, more loyal,

491

:

will literally spend more money, will

tell more people about your business,

492

:

like all the things you're trying to

achieve, will work if you're just faster.

493

:

But, the point is true,

like, you can't take that.

494

:

Dogma because there are circumstances

where you can be too fast and we are too

495

:

fast What happens is it decays trust?

496

:

so if you if you call a Surgeon,

you're like hey, I need to have

497

:

this thing cut out of my shoulder.

498

:

You're like cool What are you

doing in the next five minutes?

499

:

You'd be like, wait a second, this,

500

:

John: Why are you free right now to

501

:

Jay: you are too available.

502

:

This concerns me, right?

503

:

So there's a very tight relationship

that we studied in the book, um,

504

:

between time expectations and trust.

505

:

So what you want in every business is, is

in every interaction with every customer.

506

:

It's like the Goldilocks

zone for responsiveness.

507

:

It's the perfect amount of elapsed time.

508

:

And we call it the right now.

509

:

The right now is the, like, perfect spot.

510

:

And it's certainly not too slow,

because people hate to wait.

511

:

But it's also not too fast,

because then they're like, Wait a

512

:

second, this is gonna be terrible.

513

:

So, the right now, the magic

formula, is to be slightly faster

514

:

than customers expect you to be.

515

:

So my, uh, this is not an example

that you guys have heard because

516

:

it's not in the book or anything is

one of my friends, uh, good friends

517

:

is an airline pilot for American.

518

:

And he's the master of this slightly

faster than customers expect.

519

:

When he gets something in his headset

from air traffic control that says,

520

:

Captain Mendler, there's a plane

behind you can't back out of the gate.

521

:

12 minute delay.

522

:

He goes on the intercom says,

Hey, welcome to America airlines

523

:

flight, whatever, from San Diego to.

524

:

to Dallas.

525

:

I just heard from air traffic control.

526

:

There's a plane behind us.

527

:

We can't back out just yet.

528

:

they're expecting a 15 minute delay.

529

:

So then when air traffic control gets

back to him, he says, okay, you're,

530

:

you're, you're, you're clear to move back.

531

:

And it's only been 11 minutes.

532

:

He gets back on the intercom and

says, okay, ladies and gentlemen, I

533

:

told you 15, but it's only been 11.

534

:

We're backing out now.

535

:

Can't wait to have a great flight.

536

:

Right.

537

:

And everybody's like psyched, right?

538

:

They still had to wait 11 minutes,

but they're fired up because it's

539

:

an expectations game more so than

a raw speed game in some cases.

540

:

John: And you talk about, that expectation

game and going back to the idea of

541

:

trust Obviously, speed is critical,

but there are times when there's a

542

:

reason for it taking a certain time

that might be longer than the customer

543

:

expectation, but addressing that

expectation up front saves the day.

544

:

Can you talk a little more about that

idea of, you know, being up front

545

:

about how long things are going to take

versus informing them on the back end?

546

:

Jay: Yeah.

547

:

And that's the, the, the latter is how

business has been operated for a long

548

:

time, which is if you miss a deadline,

you apologize afterwards, right?

549

:

And you sort of take the hit.

550

:

, now that two things are true, one,

people care about time more than ever.

551

:

And two, people aren't nearly as

good, especially young consumers,

552

:

aren't nearly as good at

accepting that because we said so.

553

:

Right.

554

:

I mean, it's just, they just

don't, they, they want to know why.

555

:

And partially it's the rise

of the internet, right?

556

:

Like information and knowledge is

all around us like air in these times

557

:

in a way that it wasn't in the past.

558

:

I was having this conversation

with my wife the other day.

559

:

We were watching something Grammys.

560

:

I can't remember exactly.

561

:

And, and Cher was on I

was like, how old is Cher?

562

:

She's like, I don't know.

563

:

Like, we, we really didn't know.

564

:

John: You've been the

same age for 40 years.

565

:

Jay: yeah, it looks the same for sure.

566

:

Uh, so I just grabbed my phone,

you know, Siri, how old is Cher?

567

:

Uh, and I think it's 78.

568

:

Hold on, let me check.

569

:

Hey Siri, how old is Cher?

570

:

We're reenacting it for the podcast.

571

:

77, 77.

572

:

and that surprised me a little bit.

573

:

And then I thought, you know, When we

were first married, if we wanted to

574

:

know how old Cher was, we would have

had to get in the car, we would have

575

:

to drive to the library when it's open,

we'd have to meet with a reference

576

:

librarian, who presumably, would

have a book of celebrities and their

577

:

birthdates, and that reference librarian

would help us find the piece on Cher,

578

:

now, that would have taken,

I don't know, two hours?

579

:

Brian: Yeah.

580

:

Jay: And no,

581

:

John: the right window, it would

582

:

Jay: yeah, and

583

:

no,

584

:

John: you would have had to wait.

585

:

Jay: no sane or employed person

would, would spend that kind of time.

586

:

And so you know what we did in those days?

587

:

It was a, it was a novel concept.

588

:

We would just say, I don't know.

589

:

That information is evidently unknowable.

590

:

And we were totally okay

591

:

John: again, that was good enough for us,

592

:

Jay: People are not okay

with I don't know anymore.

593

:

So if you're going to disappoint them,

or you're going to bait and switch

594

:

them intentionally or unintentionally,

or you're going to confuse them,

595

:

whatever, you just have to explain it.

596

:

And you have to explain it in a way

that satiates their need to know.

597

:

You proactively inoculate against

people's ire around time, as opposed

598

:

to hoping for the best on the back end.

599

:

Brian: uh, I can't tell you how many,

uh, parties always ended with arguments

600

:

around what, you know, what was the

answer to a question and you just, it's

601

:

great, or you thought somebody was a

genius and you just didn't know, you

602

:

know, that's so much easier to have

conspiracy theories back then, cause you

603

:

just had to be like, is that really true?

604

:

Right.

605

:

Jay: about bar bets.

606

:

There's no books about bar bets now.

607

:

I just ask my phone.

608

:

Brian: Right.

609

:

You're quick to also say that, being

fast doesn't always mean being free.

610

:

And so everybody, uh, knows about the

concept of, you know, the fast pass

611

:

from Disney, uh, you have some cool

examples about how other companies are

612

:

employing convenience in exchange , for

additional fees and things like that.

613

:

Jay: Yeah.

614

:

You know, and at first, when I started

thinking about this, I believed it to

615

:

be really a, a, a technique for solving

your own Kind of volume problems that

616

:

that, you know, Disney Disney parks in

particular are trying to even out the flow

617

:

of guests so that it's not a stampede.

618

:

And consequently, you do a fast pass.

619

:

They call it genie plus.

620

:

Now, at one point, it's called

lightning lane, I believe.

621

:

And so the idea is that you pay an extra

fee and you get to enter the park earlier.

622

:

Beer festivals sometimes do this, they

have an hour before a general admission

623

:

that costs a little bit more and you get

access to beers without a huge crowd, etc.

624

:

And so I always thought about that

premise in the context of physical

625

:

events and crowd management.

626

:

But then I started thinking about we

mentioned it earlier kind of the the

627

:

emergency plumber kind of folks right

like and it's because I had an emergency

628

:

plumber and I was like, well, wait a

second, you know, I needed them to come

629

:

out Sunday night and they're like, sure,

but we're going to charge you more.

630

:

And I thought, well, that's weird.

631

:

Why isn't there like an emergency deli?

632

:

Like, why isn't there?

633

:

You know, why?

634

:

Why can't you?

635

:

You know, if, if, if I care that much

about it, why can't I pay more to get

636

:

whatever I want whenever I want it?

637

:

And I started to, to research this and,

and in the, in the, in the big research

638

:

project that underpins the book, The

Time to Win, which you can get on Amazon.

639

:

The book's only like

9 cause it's so small.

640

:

and what we found was that one in

four customers will pay as much as 50

641

:

percent more to in four customers will

pay as much as 50 percent more to not

642

:

wait and, and, and for whatever reason.

643

:

Um, they, they procrastinated.

644

:

Um, they got more money than

they probably should have.

645

:

They just want stuff now.

646

:

There's a lot of reasons

why that might be the case.

647

:

But that is a colossal

financial opportunity.

648

:

And not just for emergency plumbers.

649

:

And so then I started to collect

other stories of people doing it.

650

:

And in fact, it's been great.

651

:

Um, as I've toured this presentation

around the world, a lot of people

652

:

have come up to me in the events

and be like, Oh yeah, I do that.

653

:

So, you know, there's like a

chiropractor in Dallas who does the

654

:

late night, your back's messed up.

655

:

I'll, you know, I'm going to

charge a double, but I can fix it.

656

:

There's a guy who sell, he has

a store retail store that sells,

657

:

um, fancy pens, like writing

instruments and stuff in New Jersey.

658

:

And a lot of his customers are

buying business gifts or gifts

659

:

for their boss, et cetera.

660

:

And they always seem to wait

to the last minute and like,

661

:

Oh, I need a gift for my boss.

662

:

I'm going to get a pen.

663

:

Oh, but his birthday's tomorrow.

664

:

Can you FedEx it for me?

665

:

And he's always passed

along the FedEx fee.

666

:

But I said, well, are you

charging extra for this?

667

:

Like instantaneous, you

know, pen, shopping.

668

:

He's like, no.

669

:

And I'm like, well, that sounds like

a fast pass that you should institute.

670

:

And he has now and it's,

and it's going great.

671

:

So almost every business can

do this, can offer a fast pass.

672

:

And I realize now I sold my

consulting firm a couple of years

673

:

ago, but man, I'm so stupid.

674

:

I should have been doing it the

whole time because we would have, we

675

:

would literally have big companies

stacked up like planes on a runway.

676

:

Waiting for us to work on strategic

plans for them and a big company like

677

:

a CVS would call me like hey Can you

do our strategic plan and we'd be like,

678

:

yeah But we can't start for three months

because we got other people in the queue.

679

:

And what I should have said is hells

Yeah, it's just gonna be an extra 20

680

:

percent surcharge and then you can be

next and then and then people I say Well,

681

:

what happens to the one that was gonna

be next we have to bump down and here's

682

:

how you do it We're going to charge

you 20 percent more for you to be next.

683

:

And then the one that you bump

down, you say, Hey, terribly, sorry.

684

:

we had an emergency client come in.

685

:

It's going to delay your project

for three weeks, but we're going

686

:

to give you a 10 percent rebate.

687

:

You okay with that?

688

:

Sure.

689

:

So you make 20, you give

back 10, you profit 10.

690

:

And all you're doing is

changing your sequence,

691

:

John: changing the order.

692

:

Jay: serving number 67, uh, you know,

and then you're serving number 65.

693

:

John: Well, thank you again, because

Brian and I were talking about this, uh,

694

:

a client we have yesterday and, and we

think there's a really good recommendation

695

:

to be made very much along these lines.

696

:

So we'll thank you.

697

:

Well, thank you again.

698

:

9.

699

:

Well spent.

700

:

Jay: Well, one thing I should note

on that, uh, people ask me this

701

:

a lot is, well, wait a second.

702

:

Like, what if then everybody

wants the fast pass?

703

:

And it's what I always say is

unless you're like an emergency

704

:

plumber and you know that people

are going to need critical care,

705

:

don't put it on the website, right?

706

:

This is not a thing that

you talk about publicly.

707

:

This is the thing you

talk about one on one.

708

:

Right.

709

:

This is the thing that you, this

is the thing that you offer on

710

:

the phone, not on the homepage.

711

:

Um, that's kind of an important

distinction in many businesses.

712

:

Brian: But, you know,

convenience is everything.

713

:

Like you said, the research even

shows that, you know, people

714

:

want to be able to skip the line.

715

:

And, um, so it's a, it's

716

:

Jay: Yeah.

717

:

Not everybody and not everybody

does, but that's okay.

718

:

Yeah.

719

:

Um, just, you know, if, if just a

handful do it's pure profit, cause

720

:

that's the thing we don't talk about.

721

:

Like if all you're doing is

changing the sequence, it

722

:

doesn't cost you anything more.

723

:

So it's literally pure profit.

724

:

Brian: well, I want to find that

emergency deli because definitely.

725

:

Jay: that too.

726

:

Roast beef now!

727

:

John: Yeah.

728

:

This, this, this harkens back to

our, uh, our Wendy's conversation

729

:

a little bit too, Brian.

730

:

Jay: Oh my, that thing was, they're

so, huge thing about Wendy's, and I

731

:

love the, I love the intro, uh, to

the show about it, because this whole

732

:

thing, I watched, it's like, it was like

watching a car crash in slow motion,

733

:

John: a predictable, uh, uh,

uh, an avoidable car crash.

734

:

Jay: Yeah, and Wendy's is, I

think, historically a pretty

735

:

nimble marketing organization.

736

:

Um, but this was a suicide,

not a murder, right?

737

:

They, they, and what happened, in my

estimation, is you had business school

738

:

people using business school messaging

about a consumer facing scenario.

739

:

And that's what killed them

because no, nobody going out for

740

:

a Dave's double or a baconator is,

is using dynamic pricing, right?

741

:

That's not all, all they're doing.

742

:

All they're doing is ladies night

743

:

Brian: Yeah.

744

:

Jay: on lady on ladies night.

745

:

Beers are two for one.

746

:

That's the same thing.

747

:

Like at two in the afternoon,

when it's slow between meals, you

748

:

can get 10 cents off a hamburger.

749

:

That's all they're doing.

750

:

This has been around since like, there

was a happy hour caveman special,

751

:

right in the, like the Neolithic era.

752

:

This is not new information at all.

753

:

It's just, they wrapped it up in all of

this like business school jargon, because

754

:

they were really talking to investors

and stock price, not to consumers.

755

:

So this was purely, uh, A

communications fail, and whoever is

756

:

their VP comms, that's the person who

should get the axe, not the actual

757

:

people who came up with the idea.

758

:

John: Well, we are, we are of

similar minds on that one for sure.

759

:

Hey, Jay, I want to switch a little bit to

that idea of outbound messaging, right?

760

:

Jay: Mm

761

:

John: On this podcast, we talk

about how brands and people

762

:

present themselves to the world.

763

:

And it does seem like it's kind of

rare, even for brands that are really

764

:

good at delivering a great experience,

customer experience, or a great service

765

:

to use that in their outbound messaging.

766

:

Um, I did just notice that discover card

is using Jennifer Coolidge, uh, to promote

767

:

24 seven access to us based service reps.

768

:

So, you know, the, the kind of

the knee jerk reaction to people

769

:

have to The world of chatbots.

770

:

I want to talk to somebody and I

want them to be someone I understand.

771

:

are there brands that you think have

done this really effectively, promoted

772

:

the idea of quality service or a great

experience for a sustained period of time?

773

:

Are there brands out

there who've done that?

774

:

Jay: Yes, but it's a great point

and a smart observation that a lot

775

:

of brands have a differentiated

experience but then don't use marketing

776

:

to proactively highlight it, right?

777

:

They, you experience the experience

and then they just sort of assume that

778

:

that kind of sinks in by osmosis and

then maybe you'll tell somebody about

779

:

it, hopefully, maybe, is not really a

strategy, that is a, that is a wish.

780

:

But there are some examples,

like one of the ones that I

781

:

talk about, is Krispy Kreme.

782

:

Krispy Kreme has the

hot, fresh light, right?

783

:

So when they're, when they're making

donuts, the light goes on, which is

784

:

Pavlovian in a lot of ways, right?

785

:

But if they're not making

donuts, the light is off, right?

786

:

So they're basically just telling

everybody who can see this

787

:

light, you know, that this is

the experience of the moment.

788

:

I think that's a really, really

smart way to go about it.

789

:

Um, in, in the Talk Triggers book, we.

790

:

one of the signature case studies

is, is Doubletree Hotels and their

791

:

famous chocolate chip cookie that

they, that they give to guests.

792

:

the, you know, they don't do TV

commercials like, Hey, we have cookies.

793

:

Cause that's weird.

794

:

It's not a bakery, but every Doubletree

hotel in the world that is close enough

795

:

to an airport to have an airport shuttle,

that airport shuttle is wrapped with

796

:

graphics of giant chocolate chip cookies.

797

:

Right there.

798

:

They're just kind of like reminding

you like oh, yeah, that's the hotel

799

:

that gives you the cookies, right?

800

:

They're not beating you

over the head with it.

801

:

And I think that's the way most brands

who do it Do it well is is that it's

802

:

not the star of the messaging, but

it's definitely a component and I

803

:

think The discover example is great.

804

:

You know, the whole spot is

not necessarily about, Hey, our

805

:

reps are in the U S but it's

definitely part of the story.

806

:

And I think that double or a discover

is one of the examples I use a lot

807

:

for a lot of different reasons.

808

:

I think they are excellent, excellent

marketers and always have been.

809

:

And of course now they're getting bought.

810

:

So we'll see how that

continues or doesn't.

811

:

John: yeah.

812

:

Brian and I talk probably a little

too much about the experience

813

:

that Chick fil A delivers.

814

:

Um, it's not something you ever

see in their marketing message.

815

:

They want to be known for great chicken.

816

:

Uh, man, you go in there and that

experience, once you, you know,

817

:

it keeps you coming back cause

you know, it's going to be, it's

818

:

going to be the same every time,

819

:

Jay: Yep.

820

:

Or, or pal sudden service, which is one

of the examples in the book, um, is it

821

:

a chain in Tennessee, 30 stores, fastest

fast food place in the country, right?

822

:

I mean, they're, they're seven times

faster than Taco Bell in terms of how

823

:

long it takes you to get your food

and drive through it's, it's called

824

:

the business is called sudden Service.

825

:

So they're kind of committing to

the bit there at that point, right?

826

:

If you're going to, if you, if

the business is going to be named

827

:

sudden service, it better be fast.

828

:

Uh, so sometimes you can, you can

bake it into, uh, You're positioning,

829

:

which I think, you know, there's

a reason why Jiffy lube is called

830

:

Jiffy lube, not lube, right?

831

:

They're, they're telling

you from the beginning

832

:

John: right?

833

:

A couple of reasons for

834

:

Jay: yeah, there's, yeah,

there's, there's some SEO reasons.

835

:

Um, there's some other reasons.

836

:

Yeah.

837

:

Uh, but, uh, but, they're telling

you what they are in the name of it,

838

:

which is always the best practice.

839

:

Brian: So let's talk a

little bit more about AI.

840

:

And I know you don't want to look

too far ahead, but , what do you

841

:

see from how AI is going to start

impacting that consumer experience?

842

:

Jay: Yeah, I mean, there's

so many different piece.

843

:

I'm actually working on

a speech about this now.

844

:

As we talked about earlier, first

of all, it's going to change

845

:

expectations around speed, right?

846

:

You've got companies like lemonade who can

process an insurance claim in 3 seconds.

847

:

If you're Allstate, you're

like, bro, what do we do now?

848

:

Right?

849

:

I mean, so, so they're just,

and there's going to be.

850

:

In almost every industry that isn't just

like hands on like come to my house and

851

:

fix my toilet There's going to be an AI

fueled startup that that literally does

852

:

whatever your business does 10x faster

than anybody else in the business does

853

:

it today And you're going to have to

figure out how to contend with that.

854

:

so that's going to be crazy.

855

:

The other thing, you know, we talk a lot

about generative AI and that's the one

856

:

that people understand the most, right?

857

:

Being able to, to, you know, make me

a cookie recipe or create an image

858

:

for me or make a movie or whatever.

859

:

And that's certainly going to have

huge impact on, on content marketing

860

:

and, you know, books and music and all

the things that are, built by humans.

861

:

But the reality is a lot of that

stuff is just, you Good enough.

862

:

I mean, they say that AI stands for

artificial intelligence, but I think

863

:

it stands for average information.

864

:

it, it, you know, there's not, I've

never seen anything by that, that I

865

:

saw either produced by AI or, or I

produced it using my own AI tools.

866

:

I'm like, that's amazing.

867

:

That is, that is the best

version of that I've ever seen.

868

:

Like that, you know, it's, it's remarkably

good, but it's by no means the best.

869

:

And, and, and what I tell marketers

in particular is like, look.

870

:

If, if the work that you turn out

isn't better than what AI can do,

871

:

that's your fault, not AI's fault.

872

:

Like, do better work.

873

:

Do more creative work.

874

:

and the creative part of it, I

think, is, is critical because in a

875

:

world where everybody has the same

robots, the strategist becomes king.

876

:

You've got to be able to,

to, to create marketing.

877

:

That is different enough or weird enough

that AI would never come up with it.

878

:

And to that end, one of my good

friends, Justin Keller, who's now at

879

:

Movable Inc, Justin, when he's adding

people to his marketing team now.

880

:

He's not looking for marketing

operations people or copywriters

881

:

or designers or photographers

or video editors or analysts.

882

:

He's looking for poets and sculptors

and people who have degrees in theater.

883

:

He's literally looking for people

who are raw creative because

884

:

they can come up with ideas.

885

:

That AI never will.

886

:

And the ability to then execute on those

ideas is totally commoditized now, right?

887

:

You can find somebody to execute.

888

:

You can find somebody to write

a landing page for a webinar.

889

:

You don't need to find somebody.

890

:

You just go to your AI tool and say,

write me a webinar landing page done,

891

:

but what's the webinar about, right?

892

:

And, and you've got to have some really

creative people on your teams in order to

893

:

do something that AI would never conjure.

894

:

And to me, that's one of the

success paths that people really

895

:

need to think about is, is.

896

:

True creativity will

become more important.

897

:

Faux creativity will become

dramatically unimportant.

898

:

Of course.

899

:

John: like that kind of faux creativity.

900

:

We had a conversation recently with

Margaret Johnson, the Chief Creative

901

:

Officer at Goody Silverstein and Partners,

and she talked about how all of the art

902

:

directors in their building are being

actively trained on mid journey and

903

:

other visual, uh, AI generation tools.

904

:

And to your point, like, that's what can

win when all the everyone's got those

905

:

robots, but you've got great creative

people who know how to use them and

906

:

originate something, a starting point.

907

:

that makes the AI better and then can

massage an output to be something special.

908

:

You know, that's where the magic is.

909

:

Jay: Absolutely.

910

:

I mean, I, when I first started,

when I was an intern, uh, in

911

:

college, I interned at an ad agency.

912

:

And, and when I was there that

summer is the first time the

913

:

creative departments got computers.

914

:

And it's the same kind of revolution.

915

:

It's like, Oh my God, now we have

to like, we have to, and we can

916

:

make something better, faster,

cheaper, easier, more affordable.

917

:

You know, is everybody else

going to do it this way?

918

:

Like, what about, we have a photographer

on staff, like, what are they going to do?

919

:

Like, all of that disruption, is,

is scary, but it's also a huge

920

:

opportunity if you can get it right.

921

:

Brian: this podcast is all about some

of those decision points in your career.

922

:

And you've certainly had a winding way

to get to where you are in a good way.

923

:

but, you know, you started as a

political strategist, is that correct?

924

:

Yeah,

925

:

Jay: I started as a direct mail

specialist for Senator John McCain.

926

:

Brian: That's awesome.

927

:

John: that?

928

:

Brian: did you have like a moment

of like, this is not for me?

929

:

Or did you kind of just see

there was opportunity to do what

930

:

you're doing in other industries?

931

:

Like, how did you

932

:

Jay: Yeah, so I was a political science

major and I, and I, my first part

933

:

of my career was managing campaigns,

but man, it's a tough business.

934

:

And I got out of it mostly because

in those days, You weren't constantly

935

:

campaigning the way you are today.

936

:

In those days, you would go into an

election cycle and then you would have

937

:

a period of time in between cycles.

938

:

So right about then is, is

when the very, very, very, very

939

:

beginning of digital occurred.

940

:

And my friends from college had

started the first internet company

941

:

in Arizona where I used to live.

942

:

And we had beers one night

and they're like, man, we're

943

:

starting to grow this company.

944

:

We don't know anything about

marketing and communications.

945

:

I'm like, well, that's okay.

946

:

Because when you say the word internet, I

don't actually know what that word means.

947

:

and I didn't, but I said, I

don't want to do this anymore.

948

:

So I'm going to come go work for you guys.

949

:

And so I ended up being the vice

president of sales and marketing of

950

:

an internet company, having never

been on the internet, which makes

951

:

for an interesting first day of work.

952

:

Uh, and you may have heard me say

this on stage, but it was so long

953

:

ago, that domain names were free.

954

:

John: Oh yeah.

955

:

Jay: can get domain names.

956

:

You just get what you just

get them because why would

957

:

like, there's no websites.

958

:

Like, why would you have a website?

959

:

What would you do with a website?

960

:

So you just get whatever

domain you wanted.

961

:

And, and, uh, my partners and I,

in that company, we sold budweiser.

962

:

com to Anheuser Busch in 1993.

963

:

So 30, almost 31 years

ago for 50 cases of beer.

964

:

John: Oh man.

965

:

Jay: That's how long ago it was.

966

:

John: Well, it makes you feel

any better in today's dollars.

967

:

That would be like 250 cases of

968

:

Jay: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

969

:

that's, I love digital because you

have the same kind of finality.

970

:

Even, even versus outdoor or radio

or TV or newspaper or magazine or

971

:

even direct mail, which I started

in, you know, in digital, you're

972

:

like, okay, how many people clicked?

973

:

How many people opened?

974

:

How many people converted?

975

:

Right?

976

:

That, that level of

like, Math and analytics.

977

:

I really, I really enjoyed.

978

:

So, uh, I've only done two

smart things in my career.

979

:

Really one, uh, convinced my wife to marry

me, which was still my greatest triumph.

980

:

And the thing I worked out the hardest,

frankly, um, and to, uh, got the good

981

:

sense to get involved in the internet,

like essentially from the first day and,

982

:

and mostly stay involved since then.

983

:

John: Well, there were the early

days of the internet, direct mail.

984

:

response marketers like they were a

natural fit for what was happening there.

985

:

So yeah, a lot of people

986

:

Jay: It made perfect sense to me.

987

:

Absolutely.

988

:

John: then the most recent pivot, you

know, now you, you know, you mentioned

989

:

you sold your consulting practice.

990

:

Um, and I guess that was to become

what you are now, which is the biggest

991

:

tequila influencer in the country.

992

:

Yeah.

993

:

Jay: No, that was not, that was not it.

994

:

That was

995

:

John: It, you know, it wasn't that,

996

:

Jay: No, it wasn't that I,

997

:

Brian: Sounds like the world's

greatest midlife crisis.

998

:

Jay: happy accident.

999

:

No, I,

:

00:44:45,949 --> 00:44:47,509

John: more of an

evolution than a hard cut.

:

00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:48,447

Not

:

00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:52,679

Jay: know, for, for, for 10 years, I

was running a global strategy firm with

:

00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:54,429

really big clients doing great work.

:

00:44:54,609 --> 00:44:57,899

And I was also traveling 48 weeks

a year as a professional speaker.

:

00:44:58,769 --> 00:45:00,059

And, and I've spent.

:

00:45:00,168 --> 00:45:05,144

Every minute of every flight doing work

and every weekend, and I loved it, I

:

00:45:05,144 --> 00:45:09,181

thought, and then when the pandemic

happened and I had to stop traveling, I

:

00:45:09,181 --> 00:45:13,321

realized that I'd actually been manifestly

unhappy for a long time, but I just

:

00:45:13,321 --> 00:45:14,851

didn't know because I'd never stopped.

:

00:45:14,861 --> 00:45:16,231

I've never stopped.

:

00:45:16,291 --> 00:45:20,361

and, and then when I was forced

to stop, I was like, I I, I can't

:

00:45:20,361 --> 00:45:21,601

keep doing both of these things.

:

00:45:21,731 --> 00:45:23,191

Um, it's just too much.

:

00:45:23,354 --> 00:45:27,988

And I sold Convince and Convert, uh, to

a good friend cause who I knew would,

:

00:45:28,008 --> 00:45:29,268

would be a great steward of the business.

:

00:45:29,278 --> 00:45:33,024

And they have been, and, and said, okay,

I'm going to keep doing the speaking side.

:

00:45:33,024 --> 00:45:35,754

Cause it's, you know, nobody

ever gives standing ovations in a

:

00:45:35,754 --> 00:45:37,114

conference room to a strategic plan.

:

00:45:37,454 --> 00:45:40,194

It's more psychologically satisfying to

be a speaker than to be a strategist.

:

00:45:40,194 --> 00:45:40,534

Yeah.

:

00:45:40,659 --> 00:45:42,219

Uh, and it was, man, that strategy.

:

00:45:42,219 --> 00:45:42,289

Woo.

:

00:45:43,639 --> 00:45:45,779

You know, you're not signing autographs,

you know, it doesn't really work

:

00:45:45,869 --> 00:45:47,129

John: once, not even once.

:

00:45:47,149 --> 00:45:47,509

Jay: never.

:

00:45:48,089 --> 00:45:51,369

Uh, so I kept the speaking business,

sold the consulting business.

:

00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,059

And, and I hosted a podcast every

week for 10 years called social

:

00:45:55,059 --> 00:45:56,849

pros did 500 and something episodes.

:

00:45:56,959 --> 00:46:00,254

And after I'd sold the

business, uh, for a.

:

00:46:00,574 --> 00:46:02,024

I've been out for almost a year.

:

00:46:02,114 --> 00:46:03,054

I was like, you know what I should do?

:

00:46:03,084 --> 00:46:06,954

I should take some of the time that I used

to allocate every week to the podcast,

:

00:46:07,158 --> 00:46:10,098

and maybe I should just try to teach

people some of the things I've learned

:

00:46:10,098 --> 00:46:12,078

about tequila in the last 25 years.

:

00:46:12,788 --> 00:46:15,388

So, uh, not even two years

ago was when we started.

:

00:46:15,418 --> 00:46:16,578

I just made a video.

:

00:46:16,618 --> 00:46:17,088

It was terrible.

:

00:46:17,088 --> 00:46:18,578

Made another video, also terrible.

:

00:46:18,998 --> 00:46:22,518

Made a couple more videos, slightly less

terrible, um, on Instagram and TikTok.

:

00:46:23,528 --> 00:46:27,238

And then it kind of caught fire and

now it's like a whole business and I'm

:

00:46:27,238 --> 00:46:31,238

the second most popular non celebrity

tequila influencer on the planet.

:

00:46:31,238 --> 00:46:33,288

I have quarter million

followers or something across

:

00:46:33,288 --> 00:46:35,468

channels, 25 videos a month.

:

00:46:35,468 --> 00:46:39,328

We have a bunch of sponsors and

partnerships and I'm in Mexico

:

00:46:39,328 --> 00:46:41,378

all the time now, uh, doing work.

:

00:46:41,378 --> 00:46:44,618

So it's, uh, it's, it's

been a, been a crazy ride.

:

00:46:44,678 --> 00:46:46,198

Uh, we really, really enjoy it.

:

00:46:46,198 --> 00:46:48,668

It's a fun, it's a fun business

to be in, to be in, obviously.

:

00:46:48,873 --> 00:46:51,133

And the UPS guy is like,

dude, what is your problem?

:

00:46:51,353 --> 00:46:54,183

Because I get, I get like

eight or 10 bottles a week

:

00:46:54,183 --> 00:46:55,303

sent to the house for review.

:

00:46:55,333 --> 00:46:58,293

Cause we do so many tequila reviews

and he's just like, I don't know.

:

00:46:58,333 --> 00:47:01,263

I mean like you gotta, you know, and

I keep having to buy more shelves

:

00:47:01,663 --> 00:47:03,133

and my wife's like, no more shelves.

:

00:47:03,143 --> 00:47:03,983

It's like a whole thing.

:

00:47:04,023 --> 00:47:08,459

So yeah, it's Tequila

Jay Baer on Instagram.

:

00:47:08,489 --> 00:47:09,319

Look it up folks.

:

00:47:09,389 --> 00:47:10,129

Tequila Jay Baer.

:

00:47:10,740 --> 00:47:12,010

Brian: Yeah, it's a great follow.

:

00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,990

Um, I asked you, you had a recent

video of you going through, uh,

:

00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:21,599

the liquor store in Vegas, which

is like the collision of, of, yeah,

:

00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:22,019

Jay: worlds.

:

00:47:22,019 --> 00:47:22,289

Yeah.

:

00:47:22,829 --> 00:47:23,239

Yeah.

:

00:47:23,529 --> 00:47:23,739

Yeah.

:

00:47:23,739 --> 00:47:25,409

That's actually one of the things

I'm glad you mentioned that.

:

00:47:25,409 --> 00:47:26,159

Thanks for pointing it out.

:

00:47:26,189 --> 00:47:29,219

It's one of the things I'm doing now is

there's other people who make tequila

:

00:47:29,219 --> 00:47:33,879

content for like four other, uh,

accounts that, that are, um, they have

:

00:47:33,879 --> 00:47:37,419

a pretty good audience and, and I'm

like, well, what's our differentiator.

:

00:47:37,953 --> 00:47:39,693

Number one, my co host Maddie is amazing.

:

00:47:39,773 --> 00:47:41,323

we're the only one who kind of are a duo.

:

00:47:41,469 --> 00:47:44,519

But number two, since I do travel every

week still, I'm like, well, I'm going

:

00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:48,069

to go to the, the top liquor store in

every city where I'm doing a keynote.

:

00:47:48,109 --> 00:47:50,489

I'm just going to say, well, here's

the tequila I'd buy at that store.

:

00:47:50,739 --> 00:47:52,579

And so we're starting

to do that, that thesis.

:

00:47:52,579 --> 00:47:53,459

You saw the Vegas one.

:

00:47:53,859 --> 00:47:55,319

Uh, we did a Nashville one last week.

:

00:47:55,329 --> 00:47:56,989

This week we're doing one in Phoenix.

:

00:47:56,989 --> 00:47:59,219

Next week, um, New Orleans.

:

00:47:59,219 --> 00:48:01,739

So every week it's like a

new liquor store adventure.

:

00:48:01,739 --> 00:48:03,109

So people seem to like that content.

:

00:48:03,199 --> 00:48:03,699

It's kind of fun.

:

00:48:04,013 --> 00:48:04,643

Brian: yeah, it's great.

:

00:48:04,773 --> 00:48:04,953

Yeah.

:

00:48:04,953 --> 00:48:06,243

Let us know when you come to Philadelphia.

:

00:48:06,583 --> 00:48:06,873

Jay: I will,

:

00:48:07,123 --> 00:48:07,833

John: For sure.

:

00:48:07,933 --> 00:48:08,513

Teach us.

:

00:48:08,513 --> 00:48:08,793

Jay: will.

:

00:48:08,933 --> 00:48:11,293

Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania

being a control state is a bit

:

00:48:11,293 --> 00:48:13,203

of a, bit of a tequila desert.

:

00:48:13,213 --> 00:48:13,973

It gets a little harder.

:

00:48:14,113 --> 00:48:15,583

Uh, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan.

:

00:48:15,593 --> 00:48:18,863

There's a few states that's like,

Ooh, this is going to be a tough list.

:

00:48:19,053 --> 00:48:21,663

John: Well, Philly is a

short drive to New Jersey and

:

00:48:22,083 --> 00:48:22,733

Jay: Exactly.

:

00:48:22,833 --> 00:48:23,093

Exactly.

:

00:48:23,183 --> 00:48:23,853

John: have options.

:

00:48:23,903 --> 00:48:24,063

Yeah.

:

00:48:24,063 --> 00:48:24,333

We do

:

00:48:24,463 --> 00:48:25,223

Jay: Absolutely.

:

00:48:25,983 --> 00:48:28,543

Brian: One of the, the messages

I've always gotten from you over

:

00:48:28,543 --> 00:48:31,663

the years , and it's been helpful

advice for, for everybody that I've

:

00:48:31,663 --> 00:48:36,023

worked with is just, you know, these

things like technology and digital,

:

00:48:36,043 --> 00:48:39,203

they're, they're just the enabler,

you know, it's not your golden ticket.

:

00:48:39,305 --> 00:48:44,085

Especially if you can't, , hold up your

end of the bar, um, and so, um, you

:

00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:47,985

know, with everything you've seen in

your career over, many decades, , do you

:

00:48:47,985 --> 00:48:51,195

feel like the principles of marketing

and pretty much stayed the same or, you

:

00:48:51,195 --> 00:48:54,415

know, do we just live in a completely

different universe from when you started?

:

00:48:54,415 --> 00:48:55,995

Jay: I think their principles

have always been the same.

:

00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:58,750

And always will be.

:

00:48:58,860 --> 00:49:03,490

It's just how you articulate and

execute against those principles

:

00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:05,950

have changed a tremendous amount

and will continue to change.

:

00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:09,550

And now with AI, we'll change even,

even more than we've expected and

:

00:49:09,550 --> 00:49:15,210

experienced in the, in the recent past

with the ideas of, okay, how do we.

:

00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:19,650

How do we make somebody know what we do?

:

00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,460

How do we make them need what we sell?

:

00:49:22,493 --> 00:49:25,523

And then how do we make them

tell other people about it?

:

00:49:25,763 --> 00:49:26,033

Right?

:

00:49:26,033 --> 00:49:32,186

Whether you're executing that on, a, a

flyer posted to a wall or an AI driven

:

00:49:32,216 --> 00:49:36,986

chat bot, the core thesis around what

marketing is about, is the same and

:

00:49:36,986 --> 00:49:38,336

we'll, and we'll always be the same.

:

00:49:38,513 --> 00:49:43,750

What we forget though, is, is that

the tools change probably more and

:

00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:45,920

faster in marketing than almost

any other discipline other than

:

00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,210

maybe like medicine or something.

:

00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:47,380

Right?

:

00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:50,826

Like, even the stuff that, that my team

and I were doing five years ago, you

:

00:49:50,826 --> 00:49:54,341

wouldn't, you know, You wouldn't do

now much less 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

:

00:49:54,341 --> 00:49:57,591

So, it's, it's good job security

for, uh, for folks like you, right?

:

00:49:57,591 --> 00:50:00,071

Like keep, keep telling them

what, what today's truth is.

:

00:50:00,431 --> 00:50:02,648

Cause yesterday's truth

may no longer be true.

:

00:50:02,896 --> 00:50:03,566

John: Jay, thank you.

:

00:50:03,650 --> 00:50:06,960

Your background, , your

storytelling, your experiences,

:

00:50:06,980 --> 00:50:08,690

all really, really interesting.

:

00:50:08,690 --> 00:50:11,020

And, uh, we're very

grateful that you joined us.

:

00:50:11,545 --> 00:50:11,985

Jay: My pleasure.

:

00:50:11,985 --> 00:50:12,955

It's great to be with you.

:

00:50:13,005 --> 00:50:13,775

I love the show.

:

00:50:13,805 --> 00:50:15,035

Amazing questions as well.

:

00:50:15,035 --> 00:50:16,045

I really enjoyed the conversation.

:

00:50:16,045 --> 00:50:16,785

I'll come back sometime.

:

00:50:16,785 --> 00:50:18,445

We'll just, we'll do a

whole show on tequila.

:

00:50:18,445 --> 00:50:20,695

You let me know when you're

ready and tequila, actually the

:

00:50:20,695 --> 00:50:24,845

field of tequila marketing is a

very interesting, uh, business.

:

00:50:25,105 --> 00:50:27,325

There's a, there's some, there's

some opportunities there.

:

00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:27,810

Brian: Love it.

:

00:50:28,020 --> 00:50:28,400

Love it.

:

00:50:28,690 --> 00:50:30,670

John: That was, it sounds like

maybe a follow up podcast,

:

00:50:30,815 --> 00:50:31,435

Jay: You let me know

:

00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,450

John: a live edition from

:

00:50:33,475 --> 00:50:34,325

Jay: can do, can do.

:

00:50:34,325 --> 00:50:34,445

We

:

00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:37,180

John: one of the road trips we

always plan from, from every

:

00:50:37,180 --> 00:50:38,630

time we talk, talk to a guest.

:

00:50:38,995 --> 00:50:39,475

Jay: I love it.

:

00:50:39,475 --> 00:50:39,865

Let me know.

:

00:50:39,865 --> 00:50:40,335

We'll do it.

:

00:50:40,455 --> 00:50:41,235

I appreciate it

:

00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,030

Brian: All right, Jay.

:

00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:43,050

We really appreciate your time.

:

00:50:43,243 --> 00:50:43,693

Jay: Thanks.

:

00:50:46,224 --> 00:50:47,931

John: Wow, Brian, thank you.

:

00:50:48,071 --> 00:50:49,221

It was an amazing guest.

:

00:50:49,248 --> 00:50:54,248

hats off to you for pulling in an a

list speaker like that to join us.

:

00:50:54,438 --> 00:50:54,968

What a treat.

:

00:50:55,358 --> 00:50:58,292

Brian: It was, it was awesome to be

able to talk to him and go through

:

00:50:58,302 --> 00:51:01,671

a lot of the things that we usually

talk about anyway, but, , his point of

:

00:51:01,671 --> 00:51:04,991

view and he's just connected with so

many people and heard so many stories.

:

00:51:05,011 --> 00:51:06,591

And it's great to get

some of that knowledge.

:

00:51:06,831 --> 00:51:08,171

John: Next time, tequila.

:

00:51:10,691 --> 00:51:11,881

Brian: or right now, tequila.

:

00:51:11,931 --> 00:51:12,321

Yes,

:

00:51:12,671 --> 00:51:14,321

John: I know nothing about tequila.

:

00:51:14,775 --> 00:51:15,765

Brian: time to time to learn.

:

00:51:15,765 --> 00:51:17,125

Never too, never too late to start.

:

00:51:17,375 --> 00:51:17,975

John: Never too late.

:

00:51:18,195 --> 00:51:23,085

Brian, before we transition to

our dear, hopelessly unattainable

:

00:51:23,095 --> 00:51:26,952

guest segment, feel like we should

address something we've been, we've

:

00:51:26,952 --> 00:51:28,222

been skipping on this podcast.

:

00:51:28,462 --> 00:51:29,782

Relentless self promotion.

:

00:51:29,942 --> 00:51:30,462

Brian: Oh, God.

:

00:51:30,737 --> 00:51:35,077

John: Yeah, so, uh, I would ask

anybody who's listening, if you've

:

00:51:35,077 --> 00:51:39,302

enjoyed this even a little bit,

please, share, post it to your socials,

:

00:51:39,552 --> 00:51:43,852

whatever it takes, just listen,

subscribe, share, we appreciate it,

:

00:51:44,031 --> 00:51:44,501

Brian: Oh, friend.

:

00:51:44,662 --> 00:51:45,152

John: tell a friend.

:

00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:49,552

Alright, so now I will give you my

dear, hopelessly unattainable guest.

:

00:51:49,798 --> 00:51:51,488

Here we go, I think you're gonna like it.

:

00:51:52,468 --> 00:51:56,338

Dear Elon Musk, please join us

on the Snap Decisions podcast.

:

00:51:56,498 --> 00:51:59,118

We're doing it strictly for

the attention, which I believe

:

00:51:59,188 --> 00:52:01,168

you'll relate to and appreciate.

:

00:52:01,458 --> 00:52:02,928

Sincerely, John O'Brien.

:

00:52:03,263 --> 00:52:04,543

Brian: and that's it.

:

00:52:04,688 --> 00:52:05,358

John: That's it.

:

00:52:06,588 --> 00:52:11,328

I mean, I, I, I'm not gonna, you know,

appeal to ego and accomplishment and

:

00:52:11,418 --> 00:52:13,048

all the stuff that you would expect.

:

00:52:13,128 --> 00:52:17,438

Just, I'm not saying he's an attention

whore, but he will certainly understand

:

00:52:17,438 --> 00:52:18,928

people who are just looking for attention.

:

00:52:19,078 --> 00:52:20,968

And in our case, that's us.

:

00:52:21,643 --> 00:52:22,583

Brian: I respect that.

:

00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:24,590

sounds like a tweet you can fit it.

:

00:52:25,345 --> 00:52:26,795

John: And it'll fit on X.

:

00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:27,590

Brian: Yes.

:

00:52:27,812 --> 00:52:28,282

Okay.

:

00:52:28,412 --> 00:52:29,152

Good stuff.

:

00:52:29,712 --> 00:52:30,532

Let's reel them in.

:

00:52:30,922 --> 00:52:31,872

John: One at a time.

:

00:52:32,152 --> 00:52:33,042

Start booking them.

:

00:52:33,393 --> 00:52:33,793

All right, man.

:

00:52:33,793 --> 00:52:34,893

Well, thanks for a good episode.

:

00:52:35,146 --> 00:52:35,506

Brian: Yeah.

:

00:52:36,115 --> 00:52:36,995

Yeah, absolutely.

:

00:52:37,245 --> 00:52:37,825

Good talking.

:

00:52:38,056 --> 00:52:39,096

John: until next time.

Listen for free

Show artwork for Snap Decisions

About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia