Episode 16

full
Published on:

9th Dec 2024

Sonic Sensation: Made Music Studio’s Joel Beckerman

When we think of branding, we usually go right to what we see. But listen up - what we hear from a brand can be just as important as any other element in its identity. Joel Beckerman is the founder of Made Music Studio, which has created sonic identities and campaign elements for top brands, like Corona, Burger King, HBO, AT&T, and Panera. Joel joins Brian and John to chime in on the power of sonic branding. Hear how Joel got started, the impact of sound stickiness, and the time his music replaced a John Williams score (yes, that John Williams). Brian and John also share some interesting holiday shopping insights from a recent client project.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:45): Diving into holiday shopping behaviors

(08:43): Introducing Joel Beckerman

(16:04): Time and resources to create sonic logos

(21:00): Creating an in-store sonic experience

(27:43): Building sonic branding for Corona and Burger King

(32:07): Developing new sound for an iconic sound (HBO)

(33:29): Evolving music by the great John Williams

(45:18): Measuring the impact of sound

Background content

Made Music Studios

2025 Essential Retail Insights Guide - AnthologyAI

Is Your Brand on Mute? - Fast Company

The Need to be Heard - Forbes

Transcript
Brian:

John, we're back.

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John: We are back.

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Brian: How you doing?

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John: Well fed from Thanksgiving.

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Brian: Oh, can you believe

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John: Prefer not to think about it.

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Brian: Whoever thought we'd get to 2025?

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John: Who thought we'd

still be podcasting?

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Brian: I had somebody tell me that

somebody referred to the year:

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People are talking about it already.

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John: So I had a moment of, oh crap,

recently on that point, where I realized

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that if my son lives to his grandmother's

ent age, he will see the year:

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Brian: Oh my God.

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John: Huh.

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Brian: Thank God I'll be dead.

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John: Oh, the world will be over.

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Brian: Indeed.

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John: All right.

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On that cheery note, let's,

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Brian: On that,

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John: in.

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Brian: on that promising note, let's talk

about something a little more interesting.

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So, you know, the holiday

shopping season is now in swing.

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We just had Black Friday and

Cyber Monday, and everybody's

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getting ready for the holidays.

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So I thought it would be fun to talk

about a You and I actually just worked on

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John: Yes, sir.

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Brian: that enabled us to really

dig into some holiday trends

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and holiday shopping trends.

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And, and we get to really look at the

full scope of how people are shopping and

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buying things during the holiday season.

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And, into what people have bought the

last few years and, and hopefully it

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can help brands predict what people

are going to buy moving forward.

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So,

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John: And we, and we should say

that this was, this was based on a

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client that has access to billions

of actual shopper data points.

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So really a fascinating ability

to dig into where people

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are spending their money.

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Brian: yeah, totally.

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One of the stats we came across

from a, from a different source,

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Adobe was actually predicting

that this year will be the biggest

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shop holiday shopping season ever.

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And predicting that

consumers would spend 240

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John: with a B.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Online.

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John: you know, Brian, I'm no math major,

but that's almost a quarter trillion.

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Sheesh.

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Brian: Maybe you should have been John.

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John: I mean, I should have been.

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I did that pretty quickly, didn't I?

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Brian: Yeah.

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So, so let's get into some of

these nuggets before we talk

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to a really interesting guest.

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So one of the things that really jumped

out to us as we were kind of going

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through the data and, and coming up

with some ideas of how to present some

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of these insights and specifically we

were really looking at shopping trends

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through Amazon, Walmart, and Target, the

big retailers and and what some of these

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consumers do, not just people that buy

products there, what else are they doing?

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one of the interesting things we

really came across, which I think.

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Is a kind of a major alert for CPG

brands is, the private label brands

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that Amazon target and Walmart are

selling to consumers and the volume

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that they're actually selling and

taking away from potential CPG brands.

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So home goods, which is a category of, you

know, durable items at home, things like

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furnishings and beddings and different

things you might have in your house.

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, John, what would you guess would be

the the percentage of total items

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purchased on these private label

brands against all home home goods?

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John: Yeah.

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Well, well, I would have guessed

lower than what it actually is.

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'cause I do know that it, 'cause

we had that data, it's 36%.

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But I would not have guessed that because

if I am thinking about going into a store

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like a Walmart or a Target and looking

to buy sheets or something, or pillows,

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it wouldn't dawn on me that, there's a

really good chance, the thing I'm gonna

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buy is their brand, their store brand.

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Brian: Yeah, they've done a

really good job of presenting

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these products like, Yeah.

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John: I bet most people don't even

know that you're buying a store

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brand, like, because they've branded

them all, they've got so many

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different names on these things.

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Brian: so many different names

and, and packaged in a way that

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you just have absolutely no idea.

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And they've done a good job of it.

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And the products are usually good.

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They've made them better.

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So, you know, if you're, if you

have a product and you're bringing

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it into one of the big box stores,

know that you're fighting against

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them as much as other competition.

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So they're creating their own products

to beat you on their shelves,

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which is already an uphill battle.

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So.

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John: totally.

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So, so that's the durable items.

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Rip through the next three categories,

where store brands are dominating.

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Brian: So the other domination areas

we were seeing or at least where

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they're getting a lot of a lot of

play are, are home essentials, which

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is more around, you know, cleaning

products and other consumable items,

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so the home essentials was 25% where

private label brands food is 24%.

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And, and apparel is 21%.

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So you know, that's a pretty good chunk

of sales with these private label brands.

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So we've really found that fascinating

and the growing trend there.

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John: Yeah, yeah, the aforementioned

son might be able to go to

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college only because most of

his clothes were from Target.

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By target brands back in the day.

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Thanks.

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So here's a quick question for you, Brian.

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You know, knowing that so many

food items, almost a quarter of the

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food purchases, are store brands.

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Do you have a favorite white labeled

food product who does who does a

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Brian: Who does a good store,

you know, I, I've, I, I actually

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really like store brand pretzels,

which I never thought I'd like,

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John: look at that.

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Brian: good salt to pretzel ratio.

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So I'm a fan of the store brand pretzels.

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And if you can get that right, I

feel like you can get anything right.

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John: Interesting.

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Brian: my litmus test,

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John: It's a good litmus test.

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This, this could be a

whole podcast by the way.

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There is a fascinating ecosystem

around recreating branded food

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products and making them be

pretty much the same formulation.

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Brian: Oh, absolutely.

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And real fast one other thing for other

shoppers out there with it being the

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holiday season, Aldi has a better holiday

pretzel than they do the rest of the year.

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John: what the,

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Brian: The store brand pretzel,

and it's a fascinating pretzel.

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I don't know why they don't just

sell it as the pretzel throughout

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the year, but it's a better pretzel.

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So go out and get your pretzels while you

can, because they fly off the shelves.

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John: Brought to you

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Brian: I just bought, I just

bought four bags the other day.

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John: About that.

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I, I never would have thought

of this, but I've been looking

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for a reason to go to Aldi.

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You just gave me one.

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Brian: There you go.

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John: All right.

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My answer, by the way, would

be pretty much the entire

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lineup of Trader Joe's cookies.

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I don't think they miss a beat on those.

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Alright, so the other big nugget that

I think jumped out to us , is this

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idea of how differently retailers

perform during big promotional season.

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So, the one thing, the real obvious

thing we noticed was that looking at

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day by day purchases across those power

three of Amazon, Target, and Walmart,

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Amazon's done an amazing job creating

its own holiday with Prime Days.

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Like, wow.

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It's covered in the news, right?

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You see it?

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And other brands are trying

to trail onto their own, the

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holiday that Amazon created.

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So, you know, they had a, they

had a fall prime day, which

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John: Yep.

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Added a

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Brian: new to us and they're almost

trying to just create their, a

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new black Friday for themselves.

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John: So, so what that did is Prime

Days since:

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37 percent increase over kind of the

average rest of this shopping year days.

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So really big jump on those Prime Days.

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And then, I don't know about you, but I

was surprised to learn that that didn't

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do a damn thing in terms of kind of

blocking Walmart or Target on those days.

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Brian: Wasn't even a dent.

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John: Yeah, no, they still

sell as much as they always do.

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Which, P.

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S., is more.

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A lot more.

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As big a juggernaut as Amazon has

become and appears to be, Walmart

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and Target still sell more every day.

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Brian: Yeah.

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That's a, that's an interesting nugget

that we were able to pull out on that.

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John: Now, Prime Day did

Close the gap a little bit.

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So their average cart value was

like $49.40, average cart value

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on prime day that's really close to

what Target spent sells on average,

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which is an average cart of 50 bucks.

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And Walmart average cart value is $69.22.

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So, you know, they're still moving

plenty of merch, even on Prime Day.

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Brian: Yeah.

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And, you know, as they continue,

Amazon continues to try to get

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deeper into the food market.

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It'll be interesting to watch some of

that because they're really expanding,

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their food into, into the, into the

app, but also all this, you know,

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their own brick and mortar stores and

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John: Yeah, oh yeah,

big, good point, yeah.

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Amazon's doing a great job moving

electronics during the holidays.

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So that was the other

thing that jumped out.

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They, they sell almost three

times as many electronics items.

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So that's one area where, you know,

even though their total, total cart size

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is smaller, they're doing really well.

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On electronics.

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And then, as you know, no surprise,

Walmart's really dominating food and we

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saw a pretty cool nugget that last year.

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Target crushed apparel.

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Brian: was that all for you

buying stuff for your son?

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John: No, he's out of the, , store

brand target, , apparel or, or any

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tar any apparel purchase at Target.

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I'm sure that's somehow not

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Brian: not cool anymore.

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John: probably not cool enough for him.

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Brian: Nice.

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All right.

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Well good stuff.

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Why don't we get into our

interesting guests we have here.

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I'm loving this topic.

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John: Yeah, I'm excited to

introduce our guest Joel Beckerman.

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, he's an award winning composer,

producer, arranger, and author even.

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And he's the founder of Made Music

Studio, which is a strategic music

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and sound studio in New York City.

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Joel and his team have created

original scores for more than 50.

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TV series and specials, including

Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations,

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CBS Evening News, CBS This Morning,

Entertainment Tonight, ESPN's 30 for

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30, and even the Super Bowl on NBC.

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Along the way, Joel has collaborated

with talent that ranges from John Legend

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to Morgan Freeman, to OK Go and Will.

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i.

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am, and even I would argue the greatest

film composer of our time, John Williams.

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But you know us, Brian.

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We're going to bring it

back to marketing, right?

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Brian: Let's do it.

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John: That's because Joel's Made

Music Studio is also at the top

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of the Sonic branding field.

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Now, Brian, coming into

this conversation with Joel.

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Were you very aware of kind of like

the idea of Sonic branding as a

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big part of the branding toolkit?

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Brian: I was not.

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I mean, you kind of know it's there,

but don't really know it's there.

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John: Yeah, we take it for granted.

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Like, I mean, most brands do

something, but and, and some of them

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are really consistent over years.

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But man, it's, it's not something that

was like top of mind, but it is for Joel.

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And his work can be found in

really signature Sonic identities

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for some global giants, including

AT& T, IMAX, Hulu, and Disney.

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In 2015, Joel even wrote a book,

The Sonic Boom, How Sound Transforms

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the Way We Think, Feel, and Buy.

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which espouses what he calls sonic

humanism, the power of sound to

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make our lives better and simpler.

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And Brian, who doesn't want their

life to be better and simpler?

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Brian: Amen.

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John: All right, well, Joel,

welcome to Snap Decisions.

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We are thrilled to have you here.

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What an honor.

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Your, your career is so distinguished

and what you do is so distinct

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that we are excited to talk to you.

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Thanks again for making time.

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Joel: Well, thank you, John and Brian.

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This is super, super fun.

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John: Yeah.

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Brian: Thanks for us.

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John: So, so let's get started with

maybe you explaining to our listeners

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a little bit about what sonic branding

is and what your company does.

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We'd love to hear along the way, some of

the examples of the types of assignments

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that you and made music studio takes on.

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Well, let me just kind of

zoom back for a second.

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Cause this, we approach this really

is like more like a human from a

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human perspective, first and foremost.

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So I wrote a book called the

Sonic Boom, which basically about

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the role of sound in your life.

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So whether or not you realize it,

every single moment of your life

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is scored by music and sound.

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And it's always there.

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It's guiding your choices.

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It's changing your mood in an instant.

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And You know, we don't need

to be taught this stuff.

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We're kind of wired.

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We're wired for it.

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And, you know, there's really a direct

connection, not just in brands, but

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also just overall and experiences

that if you love a sound, you know,

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the sound and experience, you're 86%.

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More likely to want to have that

experience again, and the inverse is

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true, where if you have a really bad

audio experience in association with

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something, you're 86 percent likely to not

want to have that experience ever again.

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So really kind of come from the human

standpoint, and it's like, okay, how

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can we bring those truths that we

have in terms of human experience

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to the work of building brands?

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We think of sonic branding kind of through

this broad lens, like the strategic

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use of music and sound build brands.

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You know, I think a lot of times

people get very focused on sonic logos,

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which is one of the things we do.

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So lemme let me talk about what,

sonic logos are, if that's okay.

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Yeah, please do.

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A lot of what we do here is we try to make

kind of marketing topics more accessible

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to people who might not be marketers,

but have an interest in the way.

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Brands position themselves , so

yeah, go for it.

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Joel: yeah.

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So, I mean, everyone knows

like McDonald's, but Right.

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They've been.

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They've been hammering

that in the nicest way.

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For I don't know what, 25, 30 years,

and they've been super consistent

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about it, which makes it an enormously

valuable brand asset for them.

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And, you know, it shows up everywhere,

you know, generally in advertising whether

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it's, you know, radio or television.

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I think it now shows up in

some of their social content.

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So.

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A lot of times would, you know, people

would think about, okay, well, that's,

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that's really kind of a mnemonic for them.

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It's you could call it a jingle.

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It's in that it's a short version

of, you know, of the theme.

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A lot of times, you know, people

would kind of, you know, consider it a

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mnemonic as well, or like Intel Inside.

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You've heard that a million times.

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You know, now there are, you know, Liberty

insurance, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

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So I don't necessarily

think of that as a jingle.

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I think of it more as like a Sonic logo.

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So, you know, we did, for instance,

the Sonic logo for AT& T, which

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they've been using everywhere.

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You know, for what, nine years now.

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And what's kind of interesting is, is

the, the formulation of these things

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is great at the end of advertising.

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It's great, you know, hearing

the sound against a visual and it

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reinforces the visual, reinforces the

sound, which reinforces the visual.

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So now you have a multi

sensory experience.

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Which we all know just from research

and just our own human experience

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makes things that much more sticky.

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Sonic logos also, you know, I

call it the ham sandwich factor.

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Like if you're in the kitchen and you're

making a ham sandwich and not even

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looking at the TV and you hear that sonic

logo, it's like, Oh, you know, whether

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it's consciously or subconsciously, you

know, you, you might all of a sudden

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you want to have McDonald's get in

the car and Drive out to McDonald's.

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So that, that's kind of the

basic the basics of a sonic logo.

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What's super interesting even though

it has all of this research behind it

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about how valuable it is to the brand

and to brand building, it's amazing how

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many brands have not yet taken advantage

of that that as a tool in the toolbox.

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And the flip side is there are, you

know, there are some great examples,

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things that, you know, super successful.

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And then there are a lot of

things which it's like, Oh,

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sonic logos, let's check the box.

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So generally I, what I say to people is

you, you need to put the same level of

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rigor and the same level of emotional,

you know, what's the emotional connection

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like that you do into a visual identity.

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So if you're just kind of like

doing something that's more

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executional for a spot or whatever,

it is kind of checking a box.

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And in general, our experiences,

those things don't last more than

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13 weeks because they're not really

centered in the brand or centered in

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what a particular ad campaign needs.

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John: I like, I like the comparison

to, you know, the amount of energy

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and investment and research and

thought you'd put into doing a visual

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identity, because certainly brands can

spend a lot of money and time there.

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I'm just curious, when you're doing,

let's, let's keep it, let's limit

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it to the idea of the Sonic logo.

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Like the examples you just provided,

how many options are you likely to

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be generating in the process and how

many you likely to show a client,

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just real quick, curious to know,

like, what's the process look like?

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Joel: Okay.

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So that's a scary, it's a scary,

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John: sure.

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I'm sure.

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Brian: Talk about a ham sandwich.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Brian and I like to imagine what was

it like to be in the, in the room and

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things get pitched and how much did

we see versus how much you created

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in the first place to get there?

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Joel: So I'll just like the dirty little

secret is if we're producing less, it

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means that we did a really good job up

front in terms of we do these sonic mood

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board sessions, which are very much like.

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Picking colors out of a color, you

know, color swatch book or you know,

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you know, there's a lot of other

sort of things we do in marketing.

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They're very intuitive.

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So so we'll talk about the brand.

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We'll get a brand brief.

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We'll, you know, give people, I mean,

almost invariably people are coming

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to us and saying, look, we're in the

middle of a brand transformation.

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What's what can sound

do to help us with this?

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So So if we do a good job with these

listening sessions, sonic mood board

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sessions, we're taking all that

information in and we're playing examples

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of things out on the world and saying,

okay, well, how does that make you feel?

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It's like, you don't need to be

able to look, you don't need to play

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guitar, or you don't need to like,

you know, know every you know, Led

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Zeppelin song to be able to do this.

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It really has to do with,

how does it make you feel?

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John: That's great.

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Great.

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That's great.

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Simple criteria.

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Stop thinking so hard.

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How do you feel?

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Joel: totally, because you know,

we're all consumers as well.

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Right.

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Even, and it's easy, actually, it's

easier in a lot of ways to take a

379

:

half a step back from your brand

in music and sound than it is if

380

:

you're doing a visual identity.

381

:

So, in general, people say, you know,

like, oh my, oh my God, this is like

382

:

the most fun meeting I've ever had in

my life because it's really just about

383

:

listening and sort of talking about

it and the emotional component of it.

384

:

So if we do a good job on that.

385

:

Now we have really a common language.

386

:

We've developed a language that, you

know, you have the brand language and

387

:

you have the music and sound language.

388

:

So now we can go back and kind of,

you know bring all the alchemy to it.

389

:

And usually I mean, let's just be

honest, this is an iterative process.

390

:

So sometimes we might create eight or 10

and it's like, Oh yeah, we, we kicked it.

391

:

This is great.

392

:

Let's just show it to the

clients for a first round.

393

:

Sometimes we might create 40 things

before we're happy before we feel like

394

:

we've captured something and, you know,

again, people are really focused on

395

:

the sonic logos, which is what shows

up at the end of the advertising.

396

:

However, you know, if you're, if you're

doing it right, you're creating something

397

:

that can show up in any touch point.

398

:

So, you know, we did something

for the Pillsbury dough boy.

399

:

So you got the lap.

400

:

Now there's a Sonic logo that just

came out recently and it showed up.

401

:

You know, in the middle of the stadium

in a little break between you know,

402

:

between innings of a baseball game.

403

:

It's like, okay, that's how

they're supposed to use it.

404

:

So really what gets you to that point

of coming to something iconic cause

405

:

in, in that specific example, there's

an underscore, which is a theme.

406

:

So if you think about a theme from a movie

or a theme from a television show, it

407

:

gives you kind of a sense of the story.

408

:

So if we're doing the theme, we're

doing that You know, and the sonic logo

409

:

becomes part of that, then hopefully

that helps us get a handle on it and

410

:

helps clients get a handle on it.

411

:

We should always be listening to Sonic

Logos in isolation, but if we have the

412

:

story, the musical story that's attached

to it, it just, it just becomes that much

413

:

more resonant and much more a sense of,

you know, we're trying to create music and

414

:

sound that's iconic and that's enduring.

415

:

That's gonna be around a really

long time, not just something that's

416

:

going to show up for 30 years.

417

:

So it's a long process but you know,

when you get it, when you nail it.

418

:

It's super, it's super fun

and it's super exciting.

419

:

Brian: The best, the best processes I've

seen are when, you know, it is difficult

420

:

because a client agency relationship will

be like, you know, I'm hiring this agency.

421

:

I want to see something that's complete.

422

:

But at the same time, it's like, you

know, you try to put something in a

423

:

state where people can react to, and

it might not be fully complete, but

424

:

if you can get the right feedback,

You don't necessarily have like wasted

425

:

all the time on creating something.

426

:

That's what you would consider complete.

427

:

Cause you know, that they're going to

have feedback but at the same time, they

428

:

want to see something fully finished.

429

:

So there's definitely a dance there.

430

:

And when you get it right, it's great.

431

:

John: Yes.

432

:

You mean that you mean that mood

stage, Brian, where it's kind of

433

:

like, are you getting the right feel?

434

:

Brian: And, you know, and also

like, you know, maybe needs a

435

:

little bit more of this and a

little bit less of that or whatever.

436

:

So do you find Joel that Brands

are you educating them on, on

437

:

how they can use these things?

438

:

, do they even know how to

fully use these things?

439

:

Joel: You know there are some marketers

that have like, you know, really,

440

:

really deep experience in this, but

the vast majority of people don't yet.

441

:

It's still a relatively you know, new

part of the branding arsenal, but, like,

442

:

you know, I talked about doing something

in a break in a, in a screen in a, in

443

:

a, in a stadium, but there's a million

other places things can show up in like

444

:

corporate meetings and you know, devices.

445

:

There's a lot of things.

446

:

, it's inspired by, it's,

again, like a common language.

447

:

What you're trying to come up with,

because it's about personality.

448

:

It's really about, expressing

the personality and all the

449

:

places that the brand shows up.

450

:

John: So we are, we're curious to

hear about the range of projects.

451

:

You know, I know you've mentioned

Sonic logos and early on, it

452

:

sounded like that was just kind

of like the tip of the iceberg for

453

:

you, but And you've just mentioned

doing device sounds and car sounds.

454

:

Like what's the spectrum of audio

work that you do on behalf of brands,

455

:

Joel: well that's like why this is

insanely fun because every time we turn

456

:

around, there's a new opportunity and

something can do so we, we did we're

457

:

actually working on a flagship retail

project right now, which didn't open

458

:

or hasn't opened yet which I can't talk

about, but I'll talk about one that I can.

459

:

So we did really soundscapes for.

460

:

The the flagship retail

store for AT& T in Chicago.

461

:

So it's really, we're thinking

about every, it's like scoring your

462

:

experience through the whole store.

463

:

So if you walk in, you know, when you

think about like Chicago, there's all

464

:

this kind of crazy noise and energy

and stuff coming in off the street.

465

:

We wanted to get people to like,

just change their mood for a moment.

466

:

And we wanted to do something

a little bit whimsical.

467

:

So we came up with this idea of doing

like a sonic Rube Goldberg machine.

468

:

So you have, when you walk in, you have

all these sort of, you know you have a

469

:

mood that kind of grabs your attention.

470

:

It's like, all of a sudden

you're seeing things.

471

:

We wanted people to stop in the vestibule.

472

:

So you're not just going and getting

like a phone case, but you're like,

473

:

Ooh, and you're looking across the store

and you might see different things.

474

:

Because it slows you down.

475

:

It stops you, you know, we're able to

affect people's behavior with this.

476

:

And then the Rube Goldberg machine came in

with sort of all these little surprises.

477

:

It's like you hear, you know,

a ball coming down a xylophone,

478

:

or you hear like little moments

of fireworks or whatever it is.

479

:

So it's like it grabs your attention.

480

:

You want to stay in the

vestibule for a second.

481

:

And the biggest problem we had

with it really is the kids don't

482

:

want to leave the vestibule.

483

:

They don't want to go into the store.

484

:

So, you know, but that's

a good problem to have.

485

:

So

486

:

John: but you're, so you're kind of

helping navigate people through a retail

487

:

environment by keying them with sound.

488

:

Joel: yes.

489

:

And also in scoring.

490

:

In scoring their experiences in different

parts of the store we actually can

491

:

slow down people's shopping behavior,

which actually increases cash register.

492

:

So there's a lot of, you know, it's,

it's emotional, it's brand centered.

493

:

It's also very much

human behavior centered.

494

:

And there's like a ton of

research and associated with us.

495

:

Like we'll do implicit association

testing, which is subconscious

496

:

research that shows people like,

you know, basically by the choices

497

:

that they make when they're under

time pressure, we know that they're

498

:

getting to a subconscious response.

499

:

And that helps us actually

guide the direction of the work.

500

:

But you know, other examples if you

think about You know, theme parks.

501

:

Okay.

502

:

It, you know, might be super obvious, but

There, there is a little band in actually

503

:

in the star Wars experience in, in the the

theme parks where we created this song for

504

:

a band with the aliens that play through a

little window and all this kind of stuff.

505

:

But now that song shows up

in the retail environments.

506

:

So it's like, there's something

that's familiar, you know, the

507

:

voice is familiar or whatever.

508

:

And it's like, Oh, I just saw that

or, you know, whatever it, it just,

509

:

again, ties those experiences.

510

:

Yeah.

511

:

And, you know, people have a little smile

on their face, which doesn't hurt when

512

:

you're trying to, you know, sell merch.

513

:

So it really shows up in a

million different places.

514

:

You know, products are probably

one of the most fun places.

515

:

Brian: Are you a lot of times kind of

starting with like a starter kit of like,

516

:

you know, a couple tracks that they can

use in like a commercial or like you said,

517

:

on a, on a website or in an app, and then

they come back to you to kind of expand

518

:

on those things for different things.

519

:

Cause You know, like a logo,

there's different cuts or images

520

:

and stuff, but I could, you

know, music, it's the fit, right?

521

:

So like, is it, you know, every time

they have something new, they're

522

:

coming back to you to kind of make a

different version of the same thing?

523

:

Or how does that work?

524

:

Joel: Yeah, I mean, it is different.

525

:

It's different for every single client.

526

:

You know, a lot of times people come

in and it's like, okay, my biggest

527

:

need is a product or my biggest need

is retail or my biggest need is,

528

:

you know, the end of advertising

or the beginning of advertising.

529

:

So a lot of times we'll

start from those places.

530

:

And then develop toolkits based

on where people imagine their

531

:

sonic identity is going to go.

532

:

And again, we, we show people all the

different possibilities in their brand.

533

:

And they're like, Oh, well,

let's have it for that.

534

:

And for that what we've realized,

you know, over the years and really

535

:

just kind of dug into recently

is what you were talking about.

536

:

We know which, especially You know,

having to do with social, we know

537

:

that, you know what, there's probably

a hundred or a thousand times as much

538

:

content that brands need to create

or agents who need to create that

539

:

they use more than they used to.

540

:

So we know that there's going to be

that many thousands more pieces of

541

:

music where the sonic identity shows up.

542

:

So we developed this product called

continuum, which has You know, thousands

543

:

and thousands of tracks, which actually

we then kind of call down to specifically

544

:

the tracks that work for a particular

brand, and then we'll kind of give them

545

:

tools and instructions about how to put

their sonic identity, pretty much on

546

:

any piece of music that they utilize.

547

:

For the brand.

548

:

So, you know, we've been trying to

scale this idea because more so than

549

:

any time we've ever been doing this,

you know, again, there are just

550

:

thousands and thousands of executions.

551

:

As you guys well know you know,

it's a huge multiple, right?

552

:

John: And I'm guessing that, that, that

service you just talked about, where

553

:

you're trying to scale a core set of

sounds across a bunch of different.

554

:

Marketing channels.

555

:

Imagine with some franchise brands,

you're talking about many, many

556

:

different types of people and creative

teams playing around with that service.

557

:

Joel: Yeah.

558

:

And you know, that's, it's

actually kind of like part of

559

:

what we're doing is, gamify it

and just make it super fun to use.

560

:

Just like, make almost like a toy.

561

:

And,

562

:

John: So like a knucklehead like me

could go into a brand sound kit and,

563

:

and, and create some, some sounds

or, or use sounds into a social post.

564

:

Joel: Yeah, I mean you

absolutely and again,

565

:

John: Brian just says, Oh God.

566

:

Brian: Amazing.

567

:

It's terrifying to hear that.

568

:

Joel: So, you know, there

are guardrails, right?

569

:

You can't just do anything but

570

:

John: now you made Brian feel better

571

:

Joel: Oh, okay.

572

:

Okay.

573

:

You know, I, and, and all, probably

all the brand managers out there, too.

574

:

We may just feel more comfortable,

but I think the idea is to

575

:

give people a limited, but

very expansive and fun toolkit.

576

:

Again, a lot of it is library music,

but match it up against the owned

577

:

assets or use the owned assets

sometimes on different projects.

578

:

Brian: That's great.

579

:

I love the work that you

guys have done with Corona

580

:

specifically, like when I watched.

581

:

And listened.

582

:

I mean, you really feel like Rona when

you're when you're interacting with that.

583

:

And the Burger King work that

you've done as well, which seems

584

:

to be pretty significant in terms

of, you know, building sonic

585

:

branding with visual branding.

586

:

I mean, that seems like a client

that really was, lockstep with.

587

:

You know, building to

everything that you guys can do.

588

:

Joel: You know, it's, I'm

really glad you've been here.

589

:

You pointed out both of those because

they're amongst our favorite projects.

590

:

The Corona thing was super interesting

because you don't always do this now.

591

:

It's partly just because of where

we are culturally with music

592

:

and sound, but we had a band.

593

:

in the room and everyone was just jamming.

594

:

And from that jam, we're

like, Oh, this is cool.

595

:

This is cool.

596

:

So it became again, sort

of an iterative thing.

597

:

And it ended up like, we were like,

well, this melody, this melody.

598

:

And at the end, there was just like

one cool chord that got played.

599

:

And it's like, Oh, that became

now I'm on the beach now.

600

:

And this is.

601

:

So I'm, I'm glad you pointed that one out.

602

:

It's, it's won a lot of awards and it's

actually one of our favorite things.

603

:

The Burger King work you're

talking about is international.

604

:

So it's pretty much everything X,

U S and it's kind of like, if you

605

:

think about it almost from anyway,

hopefully people will, will YouTube

606

:

these things and find them, but

607

:

John: We'll share links.

608

:

Joel: Yeah.

609

:

Oh, good.

610

:

That's great.

611

:

There, there's another one that

again, just kind of an interesting

612

:

solution we did for Cinnamon Toast

Crunch, where they had this kind of

613

:

idea about, you know, owning this word

that they made up called cinna dust.

614

:

So you know, cinnamon and it could

be in a lot of different things.

615

:

So we're like, you know, they're

like, yeah, we want to, we want to

616

:

have a, A mnemonic for, for this

thing we're calling synod dust.

617

:

So it's like, well, nobody knows the word,

so we have to say the word in the logo.

618

:

And we were messing around with

a whole bunch of different things

619

:

and it's supposed to be irreverent.

620

:

So again, it's like you, you

end up a lot of times kind of

621

:

going down really blind alleys.

622

:

And we get down a ton

of blind alleys on that.

623

:

And one of the guys is

like, wait a minute.

624

:

And, and he just came like he,

he was on the way to Like he was

625

:

going to go to a stadium to a

game and he's like, wait a minute.

626

:

And he pulled out like one

of those handheld air horns.

627

:

And so we just recorded the air

horn, you know, said the word synod

628

:

dust in a really interesting way.

629

:

And there were like little chords,

a little you know, chords that

630

:

were that fit in were associated.

631

:

And we're just cracking ourselves up.

632

:

We didn't even know if it was

going to be fun for anybody else.

633

:

John: it sounds like a

really fun place to work.

634

:

Joel: It, you know, it, it is except the

times when we're trying to come up with

635

:

the idea and it's not coming and then

you're banging your head against the wall.

636

:

So I think probably everybody's

familiar with that, but yeah, it's,

637

:

John: So, do you have musicians

wandering around your studio every day?

638

:

Is it, is it just a

639

:

Joel: every day, like pretty much

everybody, there's a guy who's

640

:

even a business development guy

here who is a kick ass composer.

641

:

So like a lot of times, I mean, he's,

you know, he's worked on a lot of

642

:

our jobs, just like, well, wait a

minute, I'm going to not sell for a

643

:

minute and going to go into the studio

and record, you know, something.

644

:

So yeah, it's, it's very much

like a, you know, it's, I want

645

:

to say like a playground, but

sometimes it's more like a playpen.

646

:

So yeah, you're, you know, you're

kind of encouraged to just do

647

:

stupid stuff and see what sticks.

648

:

Brian: Do you guys find yourselves,

like, constantly, like, pulling out

649

:

your phone and, and recording something

really fast, like on the go, or do you

650

:

wake up in the middle of the night and

be like, Oh my God, I got something

651

:

in my head, I got to get it out.

652

:

I got to record it.

653

:

Like, we do that with writing and

stuff and God knows what you, we

654

:

actually were thinking at the time, but

655

:

John: Yeah.

656

:

Joel: Yeah, I, you know, for me

personally, I can't talk about

657

:

everyone else's process, but

for me, I do it all the time.

658

:

It's like I wake up and it's

like, Oh, I got to do this thing.

659

:

And I'll just, my wife gets pissed off

because I'm waking her up or whatever.

660

:

I've been doing this

661

:

Brian: you're making it sound,

662

:

Joel: Yeah.

663

:

And then I put the

664

:

Brian: you can't just write it.

665

:

Joel: and in like nine times out of

10 in the morning, I listened to it.

666

:

It's like, Oh, this is crap.

667

:

But then there's one, there's one time

every out of 10 that it's awesome.

668

:

John: Yeah.

669

:

Most of those 2:00 AM ideas

are bad, but it's good when

670

:

Good when you get a good one.

671

:

Brian: You don't, if you, and if you, if

you hadn't put it down, you would have

672

:

been like, I missed the one thing that was

673

:

Joel: I know.

674

:

Yeah, exactly.

675

:

Brian: The other project that I wanted to

really ask you about was HBO because HBO

676

:

was such an iconic sound over the years,

you know, for decades of You know, just

677

:

going through the history of HBO, it has

that, that sound and you were able to,

678

:

you know, bring new sound around that.

679

:

And I really wanted to ask you about

that process of like merging and

680

:

integrating newer sound to an iconic

sound and making sure that it fits and

681

:

goes together and, you know, becomes

more modern and tells the story.

682

:

And I feel like you guys did

a really great job on that.

683

:

And I'm sure that's an

interesting process.

684

:

Joel: Yeah.

685

:

I mean, thanks.

686

:

That's actually really fun

to do and also very stressful

687

:

Brian: I'm sure.

688

:

Joel: because you got to get it right.

689

:

You know, it's, it's people

know, love that brand.

690

:

And if you don't get it right, man,

you're going to get really, really.

691

:

Bad social media posts.

692

:

Brian: Yep.

693

:

Thank you.

694

:

Joel: Luckily we haven't had that yet.

695

:

We've seen a couple of competitors

who've really gotten blasted on an app.

696

:

That there actually was a television show.

697

:

I won't tell you which one that

took our work off the air and did an

698

:

arrangement, a different version of it.

699

:

And They just got completely

blasted with tweets from their,

700

:

you know, their audience.

701

:

It's like, why did you change

my thing that I really love?

702

:

I, you know, wake up to it every day.

703

:

So it's, it's very it's,

there's a lot of pressure.

704

:

I, I did the same thing actually

for the Superbowl theme for NBC.

705

:

So there was this piece that John

Williams wrote, you know, wrote that had

706

:

been the theme for the Super Bowl and

actually for NBC for quite some time.

707

:

And it was really awesome, kind of

like a march tempo orchestra thing,

708

:

which was perfect at the time.

709

:

And they wanted to evolve

it and move it forward.

710

:

And they said, John, okay, well,

you know, could you put some

711

:

electronics and maybe some rum?

712

:

He's like, okay, that's not my thing.

713

:

But I had, you know, he and I had worked.

714

:

Briefly on a project actually

for the news division of NBC.

715

:

So he said, well, why don't

you give this guy a try?

716

:

So he referred me to work on this.

717

:

Of course, now I'm already

petrified, you know, that,

718

:

John: gonna say, stressful

working with the HBO logo,

719

:

working with John Williams music.

720

:

Oh

721

:

Brian: Yeah, I mean, geez,

talk about like being nervous.

722

:

John: Good lord.

723

:

. Joel: Originally when I was

given the assignment, I said,

724

:

you know, like, let me call up.

725

:

John Williams and just see if he has

any guidance suggestions, whatever.

726

:

So I called up and I I spoke to his

agent for a minute and said, you know

727

:

I'd love to get in the phone with with

you and john and we can have conversation

728

:

about this And he said let me call him.

729

:

Let me check it out And he called me back.

730

:

He said, Oh, actually, John,

John said, you should just

731

:

do what you think is right.

732

:

It's like, no, no, no, no.

733

:

Really?

734

:

I want to get on the phone with him.

735

:

No, no, no.

736

:

He wants you to do what

you think is right.

737

:

And I knew also that

he's a big football fan.

738

:

So now I'm really screwed because I'm

going to create this piece with no input.

739

:

And knowing that you know, it's

possible that it can't be that the

740

:

first time he hears this is on the air.

741

:

So I finished all the mixes.

742

:

NBC was really happy.

743

:

I called up the agent.

744

:

I said, let me send you the mixes.

745

:

He said, wait, wait, wait a minute.

746

:

Let me find out.

747

:

And he spoke to John.

748

:

He came.

749

:

No, John just wants you to

do what you think is right.

750

:

So here we are.

751

:

I know the first downbeat that

he's going to hear this is on the

752

:

first downbeat of the Superbowl.

753

:

So of course I was freaking out,

called his agent after the Superbowl.

754

:

I said, well, you know, What did he think,

you know, because I think I called a

755

:

week or two after I was kind of I didn't

want to know, but I wanted to know.

756

:

So I said, you know,

well, what did he think?

757

:

He said, let me get back to you.

758

:

It's like a typical thing, right?

759

:

Let me get back to you.

760

:

John: Yeah, just, just twist

in the wind for another

761

:

Joel: Exactly.

762

:

So twist in the wind for another

two weeks until he gets back to me.

763

:

And it's like, then he's on the phone.

764

:

I'm like, my hands are shaking.

765

:

He's like, Oh, John

really liked what you did.

766

:

I'm like, so anyway,

767

:

John: Amen.

768

:

Joel: that, that's my, that's my

brush with trying to take greatness

769

:

and, and move it into the future.

770

:

Brian: Awesome.

771

:

John: At least he had the right reaction.

772

:

Joel: Thank God.

773

:

Otherwise I think I would have curled

into a ball into like fetal position.

774

:

John: that could have, that, John

Williams throws you under the bus

775

:

could, could, could change the

trajectory of your career, I suppose.

776

:

Joel: Even if he just hates me, that could

change the trajectory of my, of my brain.

777

:

Brian: You can't even, you can't even

continue to work if that happens.

778

:

John: Yeah,

779

:

Joel: You know, they're

still hiring at the bank.

780

:

So maybe I can go there and like

count, count cash or something.

781

:

So, you know, Let lucky but you

know, it's again, these kinds of

782

:

situations where you're redoing

a famous Sonic logo or a theme.

783

:

Again, there's a lot of pressure.

784

:

It's also super fun to really, you know,

kind of dive in and, you know, you know,

785

:

it's already part of popular culture

and you have to kind of be brave about

786

:

it and realize that that's the job.

787

:

It really, I mean, I know you

guys do that with visual content

788

:

all the time, and I'm sure.

789

:

Brand managers and marketers who were

listening have probably done that a lot

790

:

of time, you know, a lot of time too.

791

:

It's, it's exciting and terrifying.

792

:

John: Joel, I'd like to

connect a couple of things.

793

:

You started talking about

the human element, right?

794

:

The things that make us feel and just

kind of experience things differently.

795

:

What stands out in terms of a brand sound

or soundscape or Sonic logo, anything

796

:

that was really effective in shifting

consumer perceptions about a brand

797

:

Joel: It's such a great question.

798

:

And there's so many dimensions of

that because it could be cultural.

799

:

It could be, you know, it, it,

you know, now you have a brand

800

:

that's, that's connected to culture.

801

:

Now you have a brand that's,

you know, much more, you

802

:

hear like a brand evolution.

803

:

I would say probably one of the

most interesting ones was, you know,

804

:

nationwide, it's like, you know, I've

had like old school nationwide is on your

805

:

side, which I think is kind of boring.

806

:

It's like, Oh my God, I

don't want to use that.

807

:

And, but there were some smart.

808

:

Advertisers out there who said,

you know, like, wait a minute,

809

:

there's like all this equity.

810

:

How do we bring that forward?

811

:

So, you know, you had, you know all

these people in ads going like in,

812

:

in different ways, electronics and

all sorts of different ways that

813

:

it could be reinvented, but you

know, sort of tongue in cheek like

814

:

I thought that was super successful

again because they were carrying the

815

:

equity forward, but really doing in

a way that was kind of self-effacing.

816

:

You know, you were talking a

little bit again about kind of

817

:

going back to human experience.

818

:

There's one thing I mentioned

in the, in the book called,

819

:

which I call sonic humanism.

820

:

It's the idea of using music and sound to

make people's lives richer and simpler.

821

:

And a lot of that doesn't have to

do specifically with marketing.

822

:

But again, it's the same principles.

823

:

So we've used music and sound principles,

for instance, for Hospital rooms.

824

:

So in hospitals, one of the biggest

problems is what they call alarm fatigue.

825

:

So alarms, there are alarms that are

going off in hospital rooms for like

826

:

every device and for things that are super

minor, but they're blaring and they're

827

:

not blaring to help patient experience.

828

:

They're blaring so that the

manufacturers don't get sued.

829

:

To make sure that it's grabbing

the attention of the caregivers.

830

:

So one of the things we're really trying

to do is use some of the principles of

831

:

music and sound To make you know to to

sort of calm people in those experiences

832

:

It you know, even if you just have a

very simple biophilic idea, you know,

833

:

like from nature sound from nature Like,

you know a wave like a sound like a you

834

:

know, an ocean wave, but you have to

Pick exactly the right kind of wave.

835

:

You know, there are ones that

can be very sort of irritating.

836

:

There are ones that could be scary.

837

:

There are ones can, you know,

ones can grab your attention.

838

:

I think a lot of times in these

Experiences, especially in alarm fatigue.

839

:

It it's, we want music and sound

that people don't even know that

840

:

it's there unless you turn it off.

841

:

So just be kind of part, you know, becomes

part of the landscape that you're in.

842

:

So this idea of, of improving people's

lives in, in these kinds of experiences,

843

:

I'm really, really interested in that

there, there's another thing we've

844

:

done with some cities where there are,

you know, for instance, in Detroit,

845

:

There are some areas of Detroit

where there's a, like a ton of houses

846

:

that are right next to a highway.

847

:

So they'll go in and they went in

actually and, and put in all these

848

:

sound and noise barriers between

the highway and the houses, but

849

:

that doesn't solve the whole thing.

850

:

It's, it'll, it'll decrease the din,

but you're still hearing the noise.

851

:

That road sound the, the, the

sound of the cars on the road.

852

:

So what we did is we designed for the

city of Detroit sort of a, a nature

853

:

scape with you know, what the local

birds would be in Detroit in the trees.

854

:

And maybe they should add more trees, but,

but again, it's sort of covers that din.

855

:

John: So Joel, you have created

these urban soundscapes.

856

:

Is that something you do regularly?

857

:

Was that Detroit project a one off?

858

:

Joel: Well, it definitely was a one off.

859

:

I don't think we get calls from

cities every day of the week, but,

860

:

we took that thinking and brought

it to this project in Dallas called.

861

:

Discovery District, it was for at

and t and at and t took over like

862

:

a two square block area of downtown

Dallas and looking to revitalize it

863

:

the same way that Detroit was looking

to rev, you know, revitalize some of

864

:

the sections they had in their city.

865

:

So in this two square block area, they

created almost an adult theme park in

866

:

some ways, but you didn't experience

it that way you really experienced it

867

:

almost like its own unique environment.

868

:

Unlike any environment

you'd find anywhere else.

869

:

So on one side of a building, there

was 100 foot screen and with all sorts

870

:

of really cool, interesting visions

that, you know, we're essentially

871

:

animations everything from sort of.

872

:

Supernatural kind of floating

beings to looking at the side of the

873

:

building and like bits and pieces of

the building would fold and unfold

874

:

and become different buildings.

875

:

If you stood in one spot, there was

like an Easter egg where the whole

876

:

place would light up So, the sound

really was incredibly important in

877

:

that particular exercise because we

experience sound before we experience

878

:

Any other input from any other sense.

879

:

So really in a lot of ways in multi

sensory environments, because we hear

880

:

the sound first, that becomes the arbiter

of all of our other, our other senses.

881

:

So either the visuals match up to

what you're hearing or they don't.

882

:

And if they don't, you could be

really annoyed by it, or you could

883

:

be, you know, you get kind of like

cognitive dissonance against it.

884

:

So we really have to think about.

885

:

Not just what we're doing

sonically, but how it is marrying

886

:

against all other sensory input.

887

:

I used to do a lot of horror films.

888

:

I'd score a lot of horror

films and one of them.

889

:

Yeah.

890

:

And when they're like, when I

started my career and I had like,

891

:

Just, I was trying to get examples

like these B or C horror movies.

892

:

And what I learned was if you put

the sound right on the scare, you

893

:

blow the whole moment for like,

you wouldn't be scared because

894

:

you experienced the sound first, I

actually had to move the sound later.

895

:

That was, I think the first time

I realized how important that was.

896

:

And I've carried that through

my career ever, ever since.

897

:

Brian: Can you talk a little bit about

kind of how you got into the industry and

898

:

kind of what you were doing and what led

you to You know, get into the industry.

899

:

I know that you you kind of had a

connection to sound from up from a young

900

:

age, but like, where did you start?

901

:

And then talk a little bit about

kind of how you got into this

902

:

specific part of the industry.

903

:

Joel: Well, what really started was trying

to convince my dad to pay for an education

904

:

in NYU and for me, you know, in music.

905

:

And what he said is, I won't do

that, but if you do a business

906

:

double major, I will pay for that.

907

:

Brian: Oh,

908

:

Joel: that's where I went.

909

:

And who knew that the business

part of this would really

910

:

help me going down the line.

911

:

But my first my first inclination

of course, was to be like a rock

912

:

star, like everybody else studying

913

:

John: Yeah.

914

:

Sometimes, sometimes dads

know things, apparently.

915

:

Look at that.

916

:

Brian: In the long run.

917

:

Joel: and I'm a dad.

918

:

I'd like to think that I knew something,

but not as much as my dad knows.

919

:

But you know, the so when I got

over my rock star fever, I realized,

920

:

you know, look, I, I love movies.

921

:

I love television shows.

922

:

And I started to score.

923

:

I started to learn how to score in at NYU.

924

:

But of course there's nothing

like getting on the job.

925

:

training and trying to figure this

stuff out and making directors

926

:

happy and understanding their

vision and hopefully making their

927

:

vision even a little bit better.

928

:

But at the beginning I was kind of

starving and I had like a family at home.

929

:

So I, so I got introduced.

930

:

Believe it or not, to my wife, who

is in promo world in television

931

:

promotion, the idea of not just

scoring film and television, but

932

:

scoring promotional campaigns.

933

:

And then all the things I learned about

creating themes for film and television,

934

:

I brought to the idea, I brought to the

concept of creating themes for brands.

935

:

So at first it was just entertainment

brands and that's where things like

936

:

the HBO project came, you know, came

into being and some work we did with

937

:

Turner classic movies and for Showtime.

938

:

And a lot of this stuff is

still on the air decades later,

939

:

which is really fun to see.

940

:

And then that led into doing things

with general market brands, which,

941

:

you know, like this AT& T project,

which became really fun because

942

:

it's like, Oh, now it's, it's this

whole new medium, this whole new.

943

:

Area that I'd never played in before.

944

:

John: So Joel, that, that career

arc transition from being about

945

:

entertainment into a focus on helping

brands and, and being, you know, kind

946

:

of supporting the marketing role.

947

:

How, and you've mentioned, you've

talked about you know, driving results

948

:

at retail and things like that.

949

:

How do you measure some of that

stuff in the market or how to

950

:

do, how do the marketers you work

with measure the impact of sound?

951

:

Yeah.

952

:

Joel: you know, there's

a lot of different ways.

953

:

Obviously, the easiest one

is cash register, right?

954

:

If you add something to an environment.

955

:

And it changes the cash

register one way or another.

956

:

That's that tells you right there.

957

:

But as we all know, marketing is, is

probably a bit more art than science.

958

:

Please don't tell our CMOs

and our but, you know,

959

:

John: it.

960

:

Joel: we, we know that also we, if we can

show that we've influenced, influenced

961

:

Consumer behavior, or at least how they

feel about something, their impression

962

:

of a brand their emotional connection to

some kind of communication, you can begin

963

:

to glean from that, the value and, and

hopefully the multiple of value that you

964

:

bring in each of these communications.

965

:

A lot of times what I talk to people

about is what we try to do is to

966

:

create things that move people that

really leverages their media spend.

967

:

So if you get the same value Let's

say by doing half the media spend.

968

:

That's amazing.

969

:

If you get twice the value by doing

the same media spend in terms of

970

:

having people, you know, changing

people's impressions of your brand.

971

:

I mean, that's gold.

972

:

So that to me, that's really kind of our,

in terms of how we're serving our clients.

973

:

That's one of the most important things.

974

:

Obviously, elevating and lifting the

brand perception is important just

975

:

intrinsically, and the same thing

what we're doing for audiences,

976

:

which is people love brands.

977

:

They love to love brands.

978

:

And if we can create that kind of

emotional stickiness in association with

979

:

the brand, it's sort of like win win.

980

:

One thing that's really typical, obviously

for for marketers is, , basically using

981

:

groups of people in focus groups to

figure out how they feel about, you know,

982

:

different, Advertising or whatever it

is, the moment you do that with music

983

:

and sound, like throw all the results

out the window because sound really,

984

:

especially in marketing and film scores

and television scores, the moment

985

:

that you're aware of it consciously

and you're saying, Oh, I like this.

986

:

I don't like the music.

987

:

It's like, that's not the point.

988

:

So you really have to do this subconscious

testing, which is the implicit association

989

:

testing in which gives, you know, gives

you a much better sense of people's you

990

:

know, subconscious reactions to things,

because again, it it's sounded music.

991

:

It operates on this subconscious level.

992

:

The other thing we've

been doing a lot with now.

993

:

Believe it or not is

is eye tracking studies

994

:

John: I was going to say, you must

be some biometrics involved here.

995

:

Joel: Definitely using biometrics and,

you know, some of this stuff, I think

996

:

we're still learning where the value

is, . But again, I think that the

997

:

The, you know, the research portion

of this is incredibly important.

998

:

John: Interesting.

999

:

, Joel going to pivot to the

inevitable question about AI.

:

00:48:17,017 --> 00:48:20,347

has generative AI kind of

come into your business?

:

00:48:20,567 --> 00:48:22,067

How often are you using it now?

:

00:48:22,317 --> 00:48:23,907

Joel: you know, it generated AI.

:

00:48:23,907 --> 00:48:27,147

I think it's obviously still evolving.

:

00:48:27,407 --> 00:48:31,247

There's some, some applications

of it that are incredible.

:

00:48:31,457 --> 00:48:36,647

There was, or there is, a

physical location where there's

:

00:48:36,737 --> 00:48:39,767

you have to think about, oh,

well, it's not just the customers.

:

00:48:39,767 --> 00:48:43,717

It's also the people who are

working in this space all the time.

:

00:48:44,037 --> 00:48:47,967

And, you know, one of the things that

drive people crazy is a playlist of

:

00:48:47,967 --> 00:48:50,107

two hours of music, and then it repeats

:

00:48:50,202 --> 00:48:50,842

John: Oh, amen.

:

00:48:51,092 --> 00:48:52,042

Joel: And then it repeats.

:

00:48:52,382 --> 00:48:54,692

So one of the really great uses of A.

:

00:48:54,692 --> 00:48:54,942

I.

:

00:48:55,142 --> 00:49:00,842

We created a whole, you know, long

piece of music with a lot of different

:

00:49:00,892 --> 00:49:03,712

Elements, you know, okay, there

could be a guitar element here.

:

00:49:03,712 --> 00:49:05,702

That could be a, you know, snaps.

:

00:49:05,702 --> 00:49:07,492

It could be this, it could

be this, it could be this.

:

00:49:07,772 --> 00:49:13,252

And we, we fed it into an AI generator

for, you know, basically generator for

:

00:49:13,502 --> 00:49:19,422

you know, gen AI, gen AI for music, and

it created about 40 hours of music that.

:

00:49:19,807 --> 00:49:24,447

You could listen to and it felt different

enough that it was like pleasant and

:

00:49:24,447 --> 00:49:27,497

it just, you know, there's like, okay,

I think there were actually like five

:

00:49:27,497 --> 00:49:31,917

or six different pieces of music and

tons of stems, you know, which is

:

00:49:31,937 --> 00:49:33,427

all those different instrumentations.

:

00:49:33,897 --> 00:49:35,407

That is a really great.

:

00:49:35,757 --> 00:49:39,957

Use for AI especially in, in

sort of more spatially driven

:

00:49:39,967 --> 00:49:41,627

things, the, the stuff that's,

:

00:49:41,642 --> 00:49:45,862

John: So just expanding on the thing,

expanding on the human created elements

:

00:49:46,112 --> 00:49:46,562

Joel: yes.

:

00:49:46,602 --> 00:49:48,092

And, and utilize, yeah.

:

00:49:48,092 --> 00:49:53,132

Utilizing them kind of in, in,

in, in a specific fashion based

:

00:49:53,132 --> 00:49:58,812

on the the vocabulary that

AI learns from that material.

:

00:49:59,092 --> 00:50:02,302

I would say like, You know, I know

everybody's in the same boat here, but

:

00:50:02,632 --> 00:50:04,772

ethical AI is super important to us.

:

00:50:04,772 --> 00:50:09,252

We don't want systems that have been

trained on music without permission.

:

00:50:09,502 --> 00:50:13,982

So the systems that we're working

with right now and still experimenting

:

00:50:13,982 --> 00:50:19,112

with are trained really just on

the music that we've created.

:

00:50:19,542 --> 00:50:23,252

For that particular project

and other music that we own.

:

00:50:23,502 --> 00:50:27,132

So you know, the more data you put

into these things, the, you know,

:

00:50:27,132 --> 00:50:29,322

into these models, the better it is.

:

00:50:29,612 --> 00:50:31,912

But that's, that's one of the

things we're really trying to make

:

00:50:32,142 --> 00:50:33,752

sure that we've got it straight.

:

00:50:33,872 --> 00:50:37,092

The other thing we learned about,

you know, using AI is there always

:

00:50:37,092 --> 00:50:38,902

has to be a human touch in this.

:

00:50:39,152 --> 00:50:41,682

It, you, you can't just let.

:

00:50:42,147 --> 00:50:46,117

The generative AI just do its thing

because it just, there are points

:

00:50:46,117 --> 00:50:47,967

of, it just doesn't feel right.

:

00:50:47,967 --> 00:50:50,457

It definitely feels canned or mechanical.

:

00:50:50,797 --> 00:50:54,927

So it, you know, it, it's a

huge time saver, but we still

:

00:50:54,927 --> 00:50:56,627

need that, that human touch.

:

00:50:56,627 --> 00:51:00,207

And I think this is going to keep

getting better and better and better.

:

00:51:00,537 --> 00:51:06,627

The one thing I'm scared about is with

AI is I train and when I train and I was

:

00:51:06,627 --> 00:51:11,937

doing music for music libraries and other

things, I wasn't writing great music.

:

00:51:11,937 --> 00:51:14,467

I was writing okay music

when I first started out.

:

00:51:14,717 --> 00:51:21,217

And I think in our business, music that's

created that's just okay, that's dead.

:

00:51:21,467 --> 00:51:23,197

Because there's tons of AI.

:

00:51:23,197 --> 00:51:26,307

There's going to be tons

of music created by AI.

:

00:51:26,567 --> 00:51:28,267

That's going to be just okay.

:

00:51:28,517 --> 00:51:32,177

So my question is, how do we train

the next generation of composers

:

00:51:32,177 --> 00:51:35,997

and producers when those Okay.

:

00:51:35,997 --> 00:51:41,247

Applications like, you know our song

in the back of, you know of a scene

:

00:51:41,247 --> 00:51:46,417

of CSI where people used to make some

coin as they were learning, like, okay,

:

00:51:46,417 --> 00:51:51,327

well, if AI is doing that, how are we

going to grow our next crop of people,

:

00:51:51,337 --> 00:51:53,117

which I'm sure it's not just music.

:

00:51:53,367 --> 00:51:54,437

You guys experienced the same thing.

:

00:51:54,687 --> 00:51:57,057

John: Hadn't thought of it in those

terms, but that's really interesting.

:

00:51:57,187 --> 00:51:57,317

Yeah.

:

00:51:57,317 --> 00:51:59,507

How do you learn if, if the machine is.

:

00:51:59,937 --> 00:52:00,977

Doing the basic stuff.

:

00:52:01,227 --> 00:52:01,557

Brian: Way.

:

00:52:01,607 --> 00:52:05,917

I mean, if everything can do

okay, work, how do you take your

:

00:52:06,167 --> 00:52:07,457

okay work and make it great.

:

00:52:07,707 --> 00:52:09,287

Oh, and cause that's

going to be the bar now.

:

00:52:09,537 --> 00:52:11,297

Joel, really appreciate your time.

:

00:52:11,297 --> 00:52:12,417

Thanks for joining us.

:

00:52:12,717 --> 00:52:16,037

It was really interesting to

connect on all this stuff.

:

00:52:16,037 --> 00:52:19,437

It's fascinating to think about all this

stuff that kind of goes on that you might

:

00:52:19,437 --> 00:52:22,487

not always think about and how it kind

of is the best part of your experience.

:

00:52:22,707 --> 00:52:24,407

John: what an education, really cool.

:

00:52:24,497 --> 00:52:28,107

I mean, we're also aware of the

visual stuff in our lives and don't

:

00:52:28,217 --> 00:52:30,037

we take the audio for granted.

:

00:52:30,037 --> 00:52:33,697

So this is really helpful to hear

from your, hear from your experience.

:

00:52:33,947 --> 00:52:34,407

Joel: Well, thanks.

:

00:52:34,407 --> 00:52:36,967

It was really, really, really

fun to talk to you guys about it.

:

00:52:36,967 --> 00:52:41,727

And it's it's always you know, it's

the big marketing concepts and the big

:

00:52:41,737 --> 00:52:44,037

visual concepts that we find inspiring.

:

00:52:44,387 --> 00:52:47,537

And what we try to do is add something

to them and make them even better.

:

00:52:47,537 --> 00:52:49,627

So thank you guys for what you do.

:

00:52:49,627 --> 00:52:51,357

And cause otherwise I

wouldn't have any work.

:

00:52:51,357 --> 00:52:51,677

So

:

00:52:52,167 --> 00:52:52,677

John: All right.

:

00:52:52,927 --> 00:52:53,877

Well, Joel, thanks again.

:

00:52:53,877 --> 00:52:56,362

You have a great day and

take care of yourself.

:

00:52:56,612 --> 00:52:56,852

Joel: guys.

:

00:52:57,102 --> 00:52:59,122

Brian: John, that was that

was a great interview.

:

00:52:59,222 --> 00:53:04,212

Really love talking about things that you

might not be thinking about in marketing

:

00:53:04,472 --> 00:53:05,392

John: Never think about you.

:

00:53:05,612 --> 00:53:06,552

Brian: yeah, never.

:

00:53:06,572 --> 00:53:09,902

And you just see how important

that really is and how that does

:

00:53:09,922 --> 00:53:13,122

really align as a piece in the, as

a strong piece in the brand toolkit.

:

00:53:13,597 --> 00:53:16,797

John: Yeah, well, and we'll share some

links about with some of the examples,

:

00:53:16,827 --> 00:53:20,717

because when you hear them, you're

like, wow, that is I'm so aware of that.

:

00:53:20,767 --> 00:53:25,317

And it creates such a connection

to a brand or a show that

:

00:53:25,317 --> 00:53:26,377

I wasn't fully aware of.

:

00:53:26,387 --> 00:53:29,377

But when you hear it and think about it,

like, wow, yep, that's that's the thing.

:

00:53:29,377 --> 00:53:29,747

I know.

:

00:53:29,997 --> 00:53:32,387

I will say I was, there was

one question I really wanted to

:

00:53:32,387 --> 00:53:33,977

ask, but I never got the nerve.

:

00:53:34,227 --> 00:53:34,677

Brian: What's that?

:

00:53:34,927 --> 00:53:39,087

John: I really wanted Joel to

redo our Snap Decisions music, our

:

00:53:39,087 --> 00:53:41,947

intro and close music, because you

know, it makes me a little upset.

:

00:53:42,197 --> 00:53:44,287

Brian: Maybe that's a:

:

00:53:44,537 --> 00:53:44,777

John: Yeah.

:

00:53:44,907 --> 00:53:47,497

I don't know if we can afford

him, but if he likes the podcast,

:

00:53:47,567 --> 00:53:48,667

maybe he'll do it for free.

:

00:53:48,917 --> 00:53:49,567

Brian: You never know.

:

00:53:49,722 --> 00:53:51,552

John: Reverse compensation

for his appearance.

:

00:53:51,802 --> 00:53:52,182

All right.

:

00:53:52,182 --> 00:53:52,582

Well

:

00:53:52,672 --> 00:53:53,072

Brian: it down.

:

00:53:53,257 --> 00:53:56,017

John: happy shopping and

to, to, to everybody.

:

00:53:56,017 --> 00:53:58,877

Thanks for listening

to a show about audio.

:

00:53:59,242 --> 00:54:00,182

Brian: I like what you did there.

:

00:54:00,447 --> 00:54:01,047

John: All right.

:

00:54:01,297 --> 00:54:02,797

Brian: Alright, let's shut it down.

:

00:54:03,047 --> 00:54:03,447

John: Bye.

:

00:54:03,852 --> 00:54:04,132

Brian: Bye.

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About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia