Episode 6

full
Published on:

13th Dec 2023

Cookies After Dark: Insomnia’s Tom Carusona

Friend of the show, Tom Carusona, CMO of Insomnia Cookies, drops by for a full episode with the guys. The trio offer snap decisions on the state of influencer marketing. Tom talks about the key ingredients of making Insomnia a cult brand and shares stories about brand essence, pajama parties and other tasty marketing programs. John’s asks an unattainable Jerk to be a guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:00) Too many marketers/Intro

(01:30) Influencer marketing — more than just Kardashians

(07:44) Stuck in the 70s, wishing for watercooler conversations 

(12:17) Cultivating a cult brand

(21:54) Owning the night

(26:12) Covid and The Cookie Lab

(29:54) Positioning products for brand authenticity

(33:15) Do cookies translate in Canada and the UK?

(37:06) Warm cookies and cold pucks

(39:54) Aramark: a bigger brand with bigger implications

(43:40) Getting into marketing

(47:14) Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background Content

"The State of Influencer Marketing 2023" - Influencer Marketing Hub

"The Case for and against Micro-influencers" - Digiday

"Hubspot State of Marketing 2023" - Hubspot

"Insomnia Cookies teams with Justin Jefferson for special launch" -Bake Magazine

"The secret ingredient to Mets '19 turnaround" - MLB.com

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Transcript
Brian:

Hey, John,

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John: Hey, Brian.

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Brian: welcome back.

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John: Hey, good to see you.

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Brian: Good to see you.

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Hey, let me ask you a question.

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John: Yeah.

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Brian: can you ever have too

many marketers on a podcast?

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John: No, probably not.

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I mean, if two marketers are good,

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Brian: why not three, right?

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John: why not three?

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Brian: right.

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Well, you know, we have

some special plan tonight.

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We've got a friend of the show who Uh,

I would say that anyone that knows or

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has worked with either of us has, is

probably saying, Oh my God, that was, has

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not already happened, but we're going to

throw them in right here at the beginning.

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And we're just going to go with it.

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Uh, I'd like to welcome

in, uh, Tom Carasona,

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John: Yay.

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Tom: Hey, what's up guys,

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Brian: uh, a longtime friend

of both John and I, and, uh,

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is the CMO at insomnia cookies.

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Tom: celebrity matchmaker

as well with you too.

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John: We would not be, Brian

and I would not be together if

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not for you, Tom, so thank you.

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Tom: thank you both.

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Thank you for having me today.

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I'm uh, I'm really excited.

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This has been awesome so far and

really enjoying listening to these.

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John: Good.

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Thank you.

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Brian: you much appreciated.

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John: We've had fun doing it.

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A

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Brian: right.

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Well, why don't we just get right into it?

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So, we're going to talk

about some marketing stuff.

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We're going to hear a little bit about,

Tom and what he's doing over at Insomnia.

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And then of course, we'll have

a, hopelessly unattainable

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guest who won't be Tom.

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And, because we have him and we'll

go from So, know, one of the things

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that, is kind of sitting out there

for us to talk about is, influencers.

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So, influencer marketing has obviously

skyrocketed the last few years.

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in fact, state of influencer marketing

of:

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to jump in, uh, another 29 percent to

an estimated 21 billion, um, P yeah.

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And so, um, it's a huge part of

almost everybody's marketing plan.

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and, the ability to have somebody

kind of speak for your brand

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who, might carry some weight.

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Obviously, that's not a new thing,

John, but, and Tom, but it's, uh,

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the way that we're doing it is a

little bit different than we used to.

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I mean, one of the, the really

interesting trends that I'm seeing

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is this like micro influencer segment.

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So, there's been some categorization of

different audience sizes of influencers.

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Clearly we know, like the Kim

Kardashians, the larger celebrities,

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uh, And the Jenner girls, but, there's

also this micro influencer segment

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that, a lot of brands are focusing on.

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And, as you get kind of more niche and

niche and niche, um, there's even a,

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a really small segment up to about 10,

000 followers called a nano segment.

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And so, you know, you're looking at these,

these different groups of people and even

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content that you're accessing online is

really becoming much more niche focused.

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, so the ways that you have to develop

plans to reach people and the

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amount of work you now have to do

to reach people in different ways.

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There's definitely a risk of having

somebody else speak to your product

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but, it can obviously pay off in

big ways, but you know, what are you

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guys seeing that's working and where

do you see this continuing to go,

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Tom: Brian, you said a lot

and a really good intro there.

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I think there's a couple of

things from my perspective.

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One, um, I think you made a point around.

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some ways this hasn't, this

isn't a totally new thing.

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And I was thinking, you know,

actually it's, it's kind of like

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the oldest form of marketing just

applied to where we are today, right?

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It's, it's spokespeople essentially.

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And hopefully some of these people

actually, you know, use your product,

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care about your product, and that's

really where the word of mouth and

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the output that you want comes from.

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and I was just thinking, you know,

how does that apply to today?

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And, you know, how does that kind

of connect across all these areas?

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So for, for us.

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you know, it's really important.

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we try to connect with kind of

different, let's think about like

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rings around a bullseye of influencers.

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Right.

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So you talked about nano for us,

that would be like a new store

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opening in a new market, right?

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Like getting these people

that are really influential.

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In Abilene, Texas, right?

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Like some little town that most of the

country hasn't heard of, but one store

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there for us could be really powerful.

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So, like, getting those influencers that

are going to make a major impact there

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might be more influential than getting

on the local news if that even exists.

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Right?

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then the next ring for us might be like

a college or university and, like, having

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the influencers and the athletes that

affect that entire kind of community.

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And then kind of building from that

might be like a dietary community, right?

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Like, vegan or gluten free.

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Right?

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So.

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Yeah.

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us, we try to, kind of attack it across

all these different layers and sizes

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and try to make sure that throughout

it, like, the consistent thing that

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you need to find is, is authenticity.

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Right?

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Like, I have a pretty strict rule

that I'm not paying people who

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don't genuinely like the product.

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We have the privilege of having a product

that most people like, we've all worked

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on products where people don't like it.

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It's

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John: Yeah.

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Tom: Much easier to promote

something that already people already

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John: I, don't, for the record, I don't

know what you're talking about, Tom.

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Tom,

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Tom: um, yeah.

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So anyway, like, I think it's important

to find that authenticity and then like

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those people that are going to talk about

it are just going to be that much more

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authentic and amplify that much more.

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Right.

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Because it's true.

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It's not just like, Oh yeah,

they paid me to talk about this.

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So I'm going to tell them.

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, John: I know you can't enforce, you

know, when you're, when you're having

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an influencer because you're, you're

ceding control for how they craft the

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message and deliver the message to them.

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That's kind of the gig, but how

do you at least guide them to

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delivering, on some of that, brand

messaging that is important to you?

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And, and how do you

enforce that Authenticity

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Tom: it's, I mean it starts with

finding the right people, right.

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Like really trying to

find people that actually.

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they've never tried the product before

are going to try it and, you know,

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give you an honest opinion or review.

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And if they have, trying to find

the people that already love it

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and really just trying to figure

out how do you amplify that?

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So, in terms of the messaging,

know, we have a, we actually have

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a tech platform that we use to

communicate with large, influencers

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and we can communicate with them.

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Load up messaging in there and, build

little briefs and they can pull from the

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briefs and basically get, reimbursed or

paid for, certain tasks that they do.

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So we try to really make it

as systematic as possible.

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And then also that helps us with the,

the tracking of it on the backend.

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John: and you vet them before

they have access to that platform.

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So you kind of know who's

got access to your, stuff.

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Got it.

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Tom: Yep.

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For sure.

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John: And assume they provide like

reporting and all that stuff too on the

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Tom: yeah, exactly.

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It's Influencers can opt into and then

you can find influencers based on where

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they live, what they're passionate

about, you know, how big, big or small,

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or, you know, how engaging they are.

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It's pretty, pretty helpful.

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John: Tom, you mentioned a minute ago the

idea that you're not going to pay someone

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who doesn't love your product, right?

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And this goes to, uh, both the

authenticity and then the permission

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thing, but, my take on this influencer

marketing is you, we, we can get

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sometimes a little twisted up over, ,brand

consistency and brand controls, but given

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the technology and the platforms that

are out there now, we don't have control.

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As marketers over our brand story,

because for every influencer, Tom

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and insomnia might deploy, there

might be 10 others who might be.

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Commenting on the product, and

you have no control over that.

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Right.

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And it could be good, could be bad,

could be right on message, could be

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like violently, violently anti message.

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So I think that that's, you know,

part of the reality of this influencer

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world is like, yeah, you want to

have some control and you want to.

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Try some authenticity, but there's only

so much you can do because it's out there.

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Tom: If you want complete

control, don't go down this path.

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Right.

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John: Yeah.

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Turn off your

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Tom: Put all your money, right.

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Put all money into advertising and

then you can control the message.

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I think,

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Brian: don't really have

a brand at that point.

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So, you know,

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Tom: exactly.

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Exactly.

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Brian: But that's, fascinating because,

you know, you look at like, you know,

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like, uh, Joe DiMaggio selling coffee

in the 70s And, that's a way that like,

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Hey, like everybody loves this guy.

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So if he's drinking this

coffee, I want to drink it.

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It kind of reminds me of like.

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the long tail of Google search,

you know, like this real specific

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niche type thing where, somebody is

looking for something so specific

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and, maybe there's only a small amount

of people that are, are looking for

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that one thing at that one particular

time, but they're the right people.

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And you'll get such a high

percentage of those people

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because they are the right people.

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Whereas you're just spraying

and praying with Joe DiMaggio

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because everybody loves Joe, but.

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know, so

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Tom: And that at

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John: could you go any, could you,

Brian, could you go a little further

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back in your reference in case there's

somebody who's not 90 listening to this?

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Brian: John, I was actually trying

to connect with your age group,

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John: so, so, Brian, I, similarly to

the, to, you know, you mentioned, uh,

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you know, an iconic, an old, very old

:

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this, I feel the same way about the

influencer stuff as I do about TV.

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Like, I kind of miss the days where there

are these cultural moments around big

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shared media moments, you know, where

like everybody did watch the last episode

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of Match and whatever the, whatever the

TV commercials that were on, then people

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talked, people talked about the next day.

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now with media so fragmented, the

messaging is also so fragmented.

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So I kind of miss that don't have the

opportunity to share with a lot of people.

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Oh, did you see that thing?

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Like, no, because it was a nano

influencer that reached, you know,

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8, 000 people that have nothing

to do with the way I go through my

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Brian: Or 80.

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I mean, and the only thing we

have left now is really the

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super, it's like the super bowl.

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And then the person reaches 80 people

in, in, in the suburb of Texas.

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John: and some really

bad stuff in between,

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Brian: what, you know, what did,

uh, Tom, let me ask you this.

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What did you, uh, what did

you think of the black Friday,

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uh, Amazon football game?

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Tom: I liked that they did

something on Black Friday.

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I mean, everybody's off.

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You're kind of craving football

throughout that entire weekend.

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give the people what they want.

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And like, you've seen the

trends of black Friday, right?

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Like there's not the people banging

down the doors and trampling

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each other to get a TV anymore.

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Right.

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Everyone's sitting online and ordering.

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And, I think Amazon obviously is

positioned to capture quite a bit

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of the, uh, the Q4 retail market.

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and this just continues to, to

position them right where, right at

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the top of everybody's mind, you know?

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Brian: and mainstream marketing

is really about these times where

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people are doing all the same thing.

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So that's definitely a time period

where everybody's shopping, everybody's

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looking for stuff for the holidays.

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No one's really, know, I don't say

no one's working, but you know,

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there's a lot of people off of work.

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And, the game gave them a reason

to, like you said, kind of have

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these water cooler moments.

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And, and the way that Amazon is coming up

with some really cool ways to, to target

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and, and provide content in different ways

than, traditional television has done.

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So, uh, there's a lot, I expect

something like that to really grow.

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So we'll see what that,

what happens with that.

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Tom: Yeah.

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And I think

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John: football is the

last, the last bastion

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Brian: is, it really

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John: you know, communal watercolor

I mean, it was 19 of the 20

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highest rated shows on linear

TV this year have been football.

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Tom: yeah, I believe it.

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Brian: insane.

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John: quote me on that

because I might've made that

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Tom: No, that seems like a, that

seems like a right, a right stat.

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The right

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John: it is.

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Tom: definitely attributable to somebody.

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think with the Amazon

thing too, like, Okay.

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So if you go back 5, 10 years or whatever,

right, Walmart, Best Buy, whoever to

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bait you to get into the store, right?

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That's all that Amazon is

doing with this game, right?

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They're just like, you're sitting in front

of the TV now and your computer and your

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phone and that is their store, right?

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So they've got you locked in.

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Um, it's, it's just taking the

storefront out of the store

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and putting it into your hand.

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And it's pretty, it's a pretty smart move.

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Brian: One of the things that

they're, they're opening up for some

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of their, uh, brands that they're

working with is you can actually

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retarget by people who watch the game.

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Which is fascinating.

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I mean, like, to be able to use that data

in, um, you know, as that, as an audience,

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and then, be able to segment that down.

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I mean, that's, that's ridiculous.

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John: So speaking of that, from

nano and micro to total macro, Tom,

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any, any, football TV programming,

uh, buys in Insomnia's future?

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Tom: Not that I know of We're,

uh, we're on the, the nano side

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of, uh, budget investment at this

point in our, uh, our career.

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Um,

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no, I think,

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John: but got such a cult brand.

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You can do like, that's, that's

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Brian: but they can also, but the

thing that I love about Insomnia is

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that you have, not that you have,

like, just a defined audience, but

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like, you reach people at these

grassroots levels, at colleges, Okay.

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Uh, people that are up late, like

you guys have a brand that really

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sticks with a certain audiences.

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Like, I don't even, I don't know

that it would even make sense to go

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that broad, you know, like you guys

are doing things that on such a, a

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cultural and, and grassroots level

that, um, I don't even know that

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that would even make sense, you know?

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Tom: Yeah.

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I, you know, it, it's a really good point.

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I think it connects back to the

authenticity that I was trying

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to talk about earlier, right?

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Like, we're trying to follow

a lot of kind of cult brands.

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Strategies and and, you know, really

lean into those traits and yeah,

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just blasting ourselves across media.

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You know, mass media isn't

really a way to do that.

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that being said.

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We're growing really fast, right?

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So we're, we're going to add more

and more stores and we're starting to

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get to that point where we're, we're

tipping a little bit more into mass and

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we need to, um, the scale at which we

need to move all these stores is a lot

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harder than we had 100 stores, right?

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So trying to figure out, like, what are

some of the ways that we can do that?

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And back to the football question.

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Um, and actually again, connecting back

to authentic, you know, we invested in

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a relationship with Justin Jefferson

this year, which was pretty cool.

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So, he actually came to

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John: receiver for the Minnesota Vikings.

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Tom: he's, uh,

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Brian: the eagle should have drafted

years ago, but yes, go ahead.

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Tom: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Well, you guys, you know what?

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You guys got plenty of

receivers at this point and stop

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Brian: It all worked out, but go

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Tom: also, yeah, but anyway,

Justin's, you know, he went to LSU.

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He became a fan of insomnia there.

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And, uh, you know, he reached out

and was like, I love insomnia.

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I want to buy insomnia, like franchises

and we don't franchise, but he was

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like, I'm all in on this brand.

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Like, we, okay.

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How do we figure this out?

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So I was like, okay, this works.

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you know, we're doing something with

him where it's kind of a bridge between.

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know, some of the micro stuff we're

doing and a little bit more mass, right?

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We're leveraging, we created a

whole campaign, a video campaign.

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It's running kind of when

football airs on TV, but we're

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running it on mobile and social.

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So really trying to like pair up like,

Hey, cookies make every event better and

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have Justin kind of be that, you know, the

receiver, if you will, of our deliveries,

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um, at all these different times.

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So, um, really fun little thing,

but I think it starts to, connect

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and bridge the gap there for us.

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John: Yeah.

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Brian: guys have stores up in Minnesota?

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Tom: We do.

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Yeah, opened our, our, in St.

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Paul, we got one in Minneapolis,

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John: you know where have, you

know where you don't have one, Tom?

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Tom: Where's that?

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Burlington, Vermont?

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Ah,

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John: my daughter keeps asking,

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Tom: it's, dude, I got,

okay, good news for you.

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One coming there,

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John: news.

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We're breaking news on the, uh,

Snap Decisions podcast here.

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Tom: John, even more exciting, about

three weeks, we're opening one in South

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Lake Tahoe at the Steps Heavenly Resort.

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Yes, and I know you've been there before.

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It's,

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Brian: Oh, oh,

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Tom: gonna be, gonna be pretty cool,

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John: I volunteer to be an

on slope ambassador for that.

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Is that, is that one of your cookies?

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That can be like a hot cookie shed

at the bottom of the mountain.

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Tom: No, it's, it's actually like more,

I don't know if you've been to Southlake

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before, but it's, it's a pretty like

vibrant downtown and it's where there's a

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bunch of casinos there cause there's right

on the, uh, edge of Nevada and California.

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So it's kind of strange, like

heavenly, the mountain and the gondola

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goes down and then you get off it

and there's like bars and casino.

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It's like a party vibe So we're

kind of more in that scene, not

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John: Oh, that's very

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Tom: right on the mountain.

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Yeah.

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So.

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John: fantastic.

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well, yeah, I just, I do have

to share a story with you.

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I went to visit my daughter in Burlington

few weeks ago, while I was at her

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apartment, her roommate and her boyfriend

left, drove 25 minutes to another town,

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brought back a competitive cookie.

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Tom: Terrible one.

371

:

John: And, and proceeded to, you

know, spend a lot of time kind

372

:

of evaluating which of these six

different cookies were better.

373

:

And, daughter kept looking at

me like, gotta tell your buddy

374

:

Tom to get a store up here.

375

:

I'm like, yeah, I've told him.

376

:

So that's great.

377

:

She'll be very happy.

378

:

Tom: Coming

379

:

John: also says there's no food 10 o'clock

except for a kebab stand and that's it.

380

:

Tom: could work for us.

381

:

I mean, kind business

382

:

Brian: to do?

383

:

do?

384

:

A follow up from

385

:

John: We have road trips popping

up every time we do a podcast.

386

:

Right.

387

:

Tom: That would be From

Burlington, Vermont.

388

:

Brian: based of these podcasts.

389

:

John: We're gonna, we're gonna go to a

Barnes and Noble and then have cookies.

390

:

Tom: it.

391

:

Brian: So, so Tom, um, what's, uh, what's

Justin Jefferson's favorite cookie?

392

:

Tom: he likes our salted caramel.

393

:

Um, and I think a snickerdoodle.

394

:

I should, I should have remembered

this top of mine, I'm pretty sure

395

:

those are the top two he really likes.

396

:

Brian: You guys had a, an interesting

moment a couple of years ago.

397

:

Maybe you can talk about it with

the New York mats, even though I,

398

:

I, I despise the New York mats.

399

:

It was a pretty cool story.

400

:

You want to talk about

that for a little bit?

401

:

Tom: Yeah, this was crazy.

402

:

it was.

403

:

Let's just set the

stage for where we were.

404

:

It was the end of February of 2020.

405

:

So

406

:

John: Oh

407

:

Tom: I don't know if anyone remembers,

um, was like three weeks before everyone

408

:

was like, Oh, COVID is a real thing.

409

:

And the entire world shut down for, you

know, we all lost two years of life.

410

:

Anyway.

411

:

So the New York Mets, uh, on MLB.

412

:

com, they have, you know, content

for all the different teams.

413

:

They wrote this article, and it was

basically about how a bunch of the, the

414

:

young Mets at the time, had this kind of

unofficial thing called the cookie club.

415

:

And every time they visited a different

city, they, after the game, they would go

416

:

to their hotel and order insomnia cookies.

417

:

And they like really

bonded over our cookies.

418

:

There's a lot of layers here,

which make this so great.

419

:

One, the article coming out

was pretty cool to Seth.

420

:

Who's our founder is like the

biggest Mets fan in the world.

421

:

So when this article came out, he

was basically like, I think I'm done.

422

:

I don't know that I to do

423

:

Brian: There's nothing else to achieve.

424

:

Tom: Yeah.

425

:

I've had my favorite team of all

time is now actually, you know, the

426

:

biggest fans of the thing I created.

427

:

I don't know how I could do any better

than this other than having my four kids.

428

:

Right.

429

:

Like that, that was it.

430

:

So.

431

:

it was the beginning of something that

we, you know, we tapped into a little

432

:

bit, but I mentioned the, the February

of:

433

:

happened, everything kind of, it got

a little choppy for us put that way.

434

:

And it was a little hard to activate

that in the way that we would have liked

435

:

John: yeah.

436

:

Too bad.

437

:

Tom: genuine, genuinely love.

438

:

Uh, we've did some things with Jeff

McNeil and, uh, those are great guys.

439

:

They still love the brand, but

they're all kind of all over the place

440

:

John: I just googled, and I

see that the Mets finished

441

:

last in the NL East that year.

442

:

Just, uh, no, I'm not saying

there's any sort of correlation or,

443

:

Brian: they ate too many cookies.

444

:

I don't know.

445

:

but,

446

:

he's eaten,

447

:

Tom: I blame COVID it was 2020

448

:

Brian: he's sat on the cookies.

449

:

John: Well talk about authenticity, right?

450

:

you probably couldn't create

something like that that rung as true

451

:

than it actually happened amongst

them on their own without coming

452

:

Brian: this is what I,

this is what I love, right?

453

:

So you have these moments where,

you know, you plan for God knows

454

:

how long, you know, way too long.

455

:

And then you hope somebody likes

something, but then you have these

456

:

instances like Justin Jefferson loves

your cookie and wants to buy your stores.

457

:

And then you have the Mets all of a

sudden they have their own cookie club.

458

:

I mean, how do you and your team

work together to say, Hey, we

459

:

have to do something right now.

460

:

What are we going to do?

461

:

And we were not leaving this room

until we come up with an idea.

462

:

Tom: I mean, you basically

described what we do.

463

:

I, uh, I mean, the nice thing

about our brand and our team and

464

:

our company and leadership is that

we are incredibly nimble, right?

465

:

Like we're on top of that stuff.

466

:

And like, we're getting

cookies to those guys.

467

:

Same day.

468

:

We're reaching out to their publicist.

469

:

We're trying to figure out where are they,

470

:

?

Like, where are their families?

471

:

Who can we send cookies to?

472

:

It's kind of like an unwritten part

of everybody's job, it's not in a job

473

:

description, but it's expected that

like, again, it goes back to like

474

:

amplifying that authentic love, right?

475

:

Like if it's there, we try to pour more

gasoline on the fire and let it go.

476

:

but yeah, we just try to

be as fast as possible.

477

:

I think

478

:

John: Remember when that was

a thing in marketing, the idea

479

:

of like real time marketing?

480

:

It sounds like you guys have

just really operationalized that.

481

:

So Tom, you were just talking about,

seizing on those moments of opportunity

482

:

because you are that cult brand, you

know, with that cult brand has a lot

483

:

of opportunities, which you just talked

about, but also, I would guess a lot

484

:

of responsibility in some ways, right?

485

:

Where You know, you can't screw it up.

486

:

How do you know when you're maybe

going too far into like having

487

:

mass appeal and you need to kind

of stay true to your cultish roots,

488

:

how do you, is that just a art?

489

:

Tom: It's probably a little bit of art

and a little bit of science, right?

490

:

Like I think for us, it's about

really staying true to our brand

491

:

promise and essence, like we're

really pretty obsessed with that.

492

:

You know, we, we say our, our

brand promise or essence is

493

:

warm, delicious, delivered, and.

494

:

And own the night, like those

four things are everything for us.

495

:

Right.

496

:

So it's not to say that we don't

want to go mass, ? Like I want

497

:

everyone to know insomnia cookies.

498

:

, I don't expect everybody in the country

or world to be a customer, but certainly

499

:

growing the brand is important.

500

:

I think doing so in a way

that's responsible within

501

:

the, guardrails of who we are,

502

:

.

And not.

503

:

You know, bending or, being

different just to pander to the

504

:

masses or whatever that might be.

505

:

Right.

506

:

So it's really about looking

back to the business makes sense.

507

:

Does it feel right?

508

:

, does it connect to our brand

promise and our platform and all

509

:

that type of stuff, does it feel.

510

:

normal and authentic and fun and cool.

511

:

and if not, we'll pass on things.

512

:

I mean, I pass on stuff all

the time, like the time.

513

:

It's crazy.

514

:

but we do try to try

to grow the right way.

515

:

And then, there's other things

that I think we're still trying to

516

:

work through from that perspective.

517

:

Brian: So, speaking of owning the

night, you have some really cool

518

:

stuff that you do, where, you are

going out in the middle of the night

519

:

to, you know, get everybody fired up.

520

:

Can you talk a little bit about some of

the stuff you guys have done with that?

521

:

Tom: Yeah, sure.

522

:

So, um, you know, on the night

become this kind of like mantra

523

:

mantra a couple of years ago.

524

:

And We were, I guess it was

back in probably 18 or 19.

525

:

We were, you know, trying to

really understand, how the college

526

:

demographic affects our business.

527

:

Right.

528

:

So let's say 70 percent of our

stores are somehow connected

529

:

or tied to a university, right?

530

:

So it's either like right on

that main street of that classic

531

:

university town, or we're in a city.

532

:

, right next to Drexel or Temple or

Columbia University or whatever.

533

:

. So very much connected to university,

just like how the, the company started.

534

:

and we were kind of trying to figure

out like how many freshmen or, you know,

535

:

first year students are coming into our

system every year and what can we do?

536

:

To, bring them in to our

whole community of insomniacs.

537

:

How do we welcome thousands of

new potential customers into

538

:

our system every single year,

539

:

John: guess, free samples?

540

:

Tom: that's a big part of it, my friends,

Yeah, so then, you know, we kind of like

541

:

we're throwing a lot of things against the

wall and you know, we're like, it would

542

:

be really cool to do something at night.

543

:

So long story shorter, longer.

544

:

we basically came up with

this concept of the PJ party.

545

:

So this is now I think

we just our fifth one.

546

:

And it is basically a late night grand

opening style celebration at every single

547

:

one of our stores across the globe.

548

:

So we're 265 ish stores right now,

including in England and Canada.

549

:

And one one night, In September, we host

a blowout party at every single store.

550

:

So, you know, we're open all day long,

but then at nine o'clock at night or

551

:

eight o'clock at night, whatever time

we decide, we basically like turn on

552

:

all these crazy deals, we give out

swag, we change the music and playlists.

553

:

We change the lighting,

we decorate the stores.

554

:

and what, what happens is the coolest

thing was the first year we did it.

555

:

This was kind of like.

556

:

We're like, okay, we're

rolling the dice on this.

557

:

spending a lot of money on like these

crazy uniforms that looked like PJs

558

:

and all this swag that we're going

to give out and all this marketing.

559

:

And I was like, this is either going

to be amazing or fall completely flat.

560

:

And I'll never forget.

561

:

I was having dinner with the leadership

team because we were going to go

562

:

visit a bunch of stores that night.

563

:

And we are, our, uh, email started

blowing up and we looked at our phones and

564

:

realized that all the stores were taking

pictures of the lines that were forming

565

:

in front of their stores, even though

the stores were open just to wait for all

566

:

the stuff we were giving away and stuff.

567

:

So it was the coolest thing ever.

568

:

So and like everyone jumped in and we had

hundreds of emails going back and forth

569

:

with these pictures of just students.

570

:

Oh, and by the way.

571

:

The whole thing is the pajama party.

572

:

So you're wearing pajamas, right?

573

:

So there's these kids dressed in

crazy pajamas across the country.

574

:

That to me is the embodiment

of own the night, right?

575

:

It's like, how do you take that as

a brand platform and put it into an

576

:

activation and make it memorable.

577

:

, I've been now to, you know,

five years of these things.

578

:

And I, we typically travel around

the country and go visit a market

579

:

and hit as many stores as we can.

580

:

And I'll talk to tons of students and like

so many of them, it's their first time.

581

:

ever interacting with the brand, right?

582

:

So like talk about an emotional

long term bond, right?

583

:

like

584

:

yeah, like, yeah.

585

:

And like the stories and, uh, just

the emotion that you get out these

586

:

customers is, is pretty cool.

587

:

Brian: Yeah.

588

:

You know, I, uh, for our listeners,

I've affectionately called Tom

589

:

the world's oldest millennial.

590

:

Yes, he, he, Tom, you, it's like

you never left college in some ways.

591

:

And, uh, this

592

:

Tom: Right.

593

:

I think you have to update that to Gen Z.

594

:

Now I've grown out of millennial.

595

:

Brian: you may have grown

out of it, but I don't

596

:

Tom: Or millennials

growing out of me, I think.

597

:

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

598

:

Okay.

599

:

All right.

600

:

Yeah, we've moved along.

601

:

But, uh, the other, the other really

cool thing that you guys have done is

602

:

the, uh, the innovation cookie lab that

you've done in, in, in Philadelphia.

603

:

And, uh, can you talk a little bit

about kind of where that came from

604

:

and, uh, how you guys have used that?

605

:

And, uh, it's a great experiment,

experiential, place, but, you guys are

606

:

doing a lot of cool things with that.

607

:

Tom: Yeah.

608

:

The cookie lab, was born

out of COVID actually.

609

:

And it was kind of a crazy thing.

610

:

I'll try to keep this story shortish,

but Seth was like, we should.

611

:

out a way we let's build

an experiential brand.

612

:

And again, this is when people are

stuck in their homes and not going

613

:

out and wearing masks and, you know,

people are just talking over zoom.

614

:

Right.

615

:

He's like, we should build an experiential

brand where you can make your own cookie.

616

:

And then we'll take all the data

from the different toppings they

617

:

pick and the flavor profiles.

618

:

And we're going to use that

to help inform our innovation.

619

:

And I said, you're out of your mind.

620

:

We're in the middle of

COVID, like is terrible idea.

621

:

John: I I think what you meant

to say, Tom, was great idea boss.

622

:

Tom: right.

623

:

Um, which is exactly what I said.

624

:

No.

625

:

So we, we kind of like, we

were thrown around this idea.

626

:

I'm like, this is a really fun idea,

but how do we actually pull it off?

627

:

Oh.

628

:

And the other thing was like.

629

:

You know, we want it to be a speakeasy.

630

:

So we want it to be within a

brand, literally and physically.

631

:

So we have an insomnia cookies, normal

cookie place, and then there's a secret

632

:

door and it brings you into this insomnia

on steroids, um, and innovation factory.

633

:

So that's honestly how it was born.

634

:

we were going to originally

do it just as a digital play.

635

:

Like, can we do this online and let

people kind of like mix and match and

636

:

play with the different flavors and

toppings and all that type of stuff.

637

:

and then we said, let's build

this thing and let's do something.

638

:

That's really cool.

639

:

So we built this thing in South Philly,

right across from Pat's and Gino.

640

:

So kind of like the late night.

641

:

You know, food Mecca of Philadelphia.

642

:

Um, so a good spot for that.

643

:

Lots of late night, exposure,

lots of late night tourists.

644

:

Um, and certainly our core demo as well.

645

:

. So it's a normal store.

646

:

There's a bookcase, which you have

to say a secret password to it

647

:

opens up and then you go into the

back and as a customer, you can.

648

:

Build your own cookie.

649

:

Kind of like you build a Sunday, you can

do these crazy over the top milkshakes,

650

:

and, um, it's just a really awesome,

deeper experience with the brand.

651

:

Brian: Yeah, so, just to give

listeners a little bit more background.

652

:

So, so your, your CEO and founder,

Seth Berkowitz, went to Penn, built

653

:

the company at Penn, started selling

cookies out of his dorm room.

654

:

That's kind of the backstory there.

655

:

So the, the lab having the bookshelf

and kind of being the secret pathway

656

:

from the regular store into the,

the cookie innovation lab, , is on

657

:

brand is on part of the, the lore of

insomnia, which is, which is great.

658

:

Tom: exactly.

659

:

It can, I mean, if, and if you look at

what's on the bookshelf, really connects

660

:

back to like Seth's dorm room, right?

661

:

Like.

662

:

There's references to Halo, which is the

video game he was playing when the idea

663

:

came up and, you know, other silly things

like little connections to Penn and kind

664

:

of inside jokes and stuff like that.

665

:

So yeah, there's like a

nice connection there.

666

:

You know, it's a, it's a

brand within the brand.

667

:

it's a extension of our brand, but

it's also part of, the company that

668

:

we're really trying to understand,

you know, what does this mean for

669

:

us and how can we leverage it?

670

:

And does it have legs to

go beyond Philly and more?

671

:

Brian: Awesome.

672

:

John: really, really cool, I,

I went there for the opening

673

:

night and, uh, thanks to you.

674

:

And when you were talking about the

lines outside of the stores for pajama

675

:

party night, that's what it was.

676

:

It was amazing with very little

promotion, just a line out the

677

:

door, people clamoring to get in.

678

:

And then once you get in, just a

very cool experience for, the brand

679

:

that kind of was felt, it felt very

different, but very much a part of

680

:

what you're, you're creating and

yeah, it was a great activation.

681

:

Brian: And the location in South

Philly, like around Pat's and

682

:

June's is perfect because people

are there all hours of the night.

683

:

Everything's 24 7 there, so perfect

spot for the brand that, really

684

:

leans into the late nights, late

night crowd, so that's awesome.

685

:

and the other cool thing is you guys are

trying out new products and stuff there.

686

:

And so I want to talk to you about, new

product categories and how do you stay

687

:

within the universe of who you are?

688

:

And, we talk about being careful

with the right types of media and,

689

:

and things like that with the brand.

690

:

But how do you, terms of the

product itself, how do you

691

:

make sure you don't go too far?

692

:

You guys have added products for

ice cream and milkshakes and, and

693

:

brownies and things like that.

694

:

how do you make sure you're not going

too far with the product itself?

695

:

Tom: Yeah.

696

:

So similarly to, kind of the question

around cult and mass marketing, we kind

697

:

of take that same approach to products.

698

:

So my, I run the product team

as well here, and we basically

699

:

have like a two-word mentality

and that's cookie first.

700

:

Right.

701

:

So as we think about.

702

:

Our products and

extensions of our products.

703

:

The first thing we say is like, is

this cookie First Does it feel like an

704

:

authentic extension of our core cookie?

705

:

So talk about ice cream.

706

:

We launched, an ice

cream brand, last year.

707

:

So we, you know, in the past, we'd

always had ice cream in our stores, but

708

:

it was basically regionally sourced.

709

:

So you had a lot of inconsistencies.

710

:

It was hard to promote, you know,

different flavors at different stores.

711

:

It wasn't great.

712

:

. And it was like, Oh, the South

likes this flavor of the North.

713

:

And, you know, depending on the

provider, a wide, um, variety of, of

714

:

quality and consistency and all that.

715

:

So we were like, all right,

let's take this into our own

716

:

hands, make our own ice cream.

717

:

But how do we make an insomnia?

718

:

And we said, let's make a cookie first.

719

:

So we came up with our own ice

cream and every flavor except

720

:

for vanilla or chocolate.

721

:

It has our cookies in it.

722

:

So, uh, you know, cookies and cream

for us is called cookies and dream.

723

:

And instead of, an Oreo type

cookie, we've got our double

724

:

chocolate chunk in there.

725

:

Right.

726

:

So, salted caramel for us is called

caramillionaire and same thing.

727

:

It's like caramel ice cream

with our salted caramel.

728

:

Cookies in there.

729

:

So we really try to, again,

like ice cream and cookies go

730

:

together really beautifully.

731

:

and no one's really kind of gone, gone

all in on, you know, the cookies and ice

732

:

cream really together within ice cream.

733

:

Um, so yeah, just using that cookie

first mentality is what is going

734

:

to keep us kind of within our

735

:

John: Nice.

736

:

You know, Tom, yesterday I was watching

TV and I saw a commercial and I feel

737

:

like the universe sent this to me.

738

:

I'm kind of getting

ready for this podcast.

739

:

Dairy Queen running a national

TV ad promoting to dos, just

740

:

getting burgers and sodas.

741

:

And I was just like, what are you doing?

742

:

It blew my mind that, not only was it

not ice cream first for Dairy Queen,

743

:

it was ice cream non existent, and

it was something completely, I would

744

:

argue, inadjacent, not adjacent,

745

:

Brian: Hey Tom, when are you

gonna fire up The hot dog?

746

:

John: Oh, just like.

747

:

Tom: I was gonna say, John, you

just ruined my cheesesteak reveal.

748

:

That's our next big LTO is

749

:

John: Yeah, more, more news breaking here.

750

:

This just Insomnia,

launching cheese sticks.

751

:

Tom: Yeah.

752

:

Brian: ham

753

:

Tom: Wiz with.

754

:

whole thing.

755

:

Spam.

756

:

John: we're Scrapple.

757

:

We're here in Philly.

758

:

Remember?

759

:

Brian: But the purple ice cream that

you guys have, talk about on Brandand.

760

:

I mean, it feels like you, it looks

like you guys and my God, the, the,

761

:

the chip witch with that ice cream.

762

:

My God.

763

:

That's great.

764

:

Good stuff.

765

:

John: You got a couple

brand ambassadors here.

766

:

And by the way, I texted my

daughter saying, Hey, breaking news.

767

:

Insomnia coming to Burlington.

768

:

She, and her response is no way

with five exclamation points.

769

:

.

Tom: She'll, she'll get the Tom Carasona special secret discount code for sure.

770

:

Brian: That's great.

771

:

John: Yeah.

772

:

Thanks.

773

:

for continuing to break

news here on the podcast.

774

:

This

775

:

Brian: love it.

776

:

Tom: is, why I came on.

777

:

John: Yeah.

778

:

What else, what else, what else

should we forward you guys?

779

:

Tom: Ooh, I don't know.

780

:

I mean, new stores galore.

781

:

You know, global expansion

782

:

Brian: Talk to us about that.

783

:

So you guys, you guys

went to the UK and Canada.

784

:

And, uh, I mean, that's,

that's big for you guys.

785

:

We talk a little bit about,

uh, doing that, but also like

786

:

the operational part of that.

787

:

And, and how does that,

how does that work?

788

:

That's a little bit

different for you guys.

789

:

You want to talk about that?

790

:

Tom: Yeah, that's um, So the

international thing is awesome, right?

791

:

It's kind of a validating moment for

us that this brand can it work in

792

:

other cultures and other, , countries?

793

:

so we did quite a bit of work, insights

work in both Canada and, the UK before

794

:

we even thought of entering the country,

understanding the, Case preferences,

795

:

the demographics, like what's the

right city to enter in, you know, every

796

:

type of way you could think of it.

797

:

We really try to be smart about this.

798

:

, so we spent a lot of time kind of

figuring out the strategy to, to enter

799

:

these markets in the appropriate manner.

800

:

and then we spent a lot of time

figuring out how the heck do we

801

:

actually operate something like this?

802

:

Like product, ? How do we

get it there in the UK?

803

:

There's different, laws and

regulations around the suites and,

804

:

you know, some of the different.

805

:

things that are in our cookies, right?

806

:

So like really have to understand those

markets and also make sure that we're

807

:

basically re engineering our cookies to

work there and also work for the taste

808

:

palette of whatever country that we're in.

809

:

Canada is a little bit easier because it's

Toronto and Toronto is pretty darn close.

810

:

To the U.

811

:

S.

812

:

But same thing like understanding

the cultural differences.

813

:

you know, the college culture in the U.

814

:

S.

815

:

is really unique.

816

:

It doesn't really exist in the same manner

that anywhere else in the world, right?

817

:

You don't have the frat system

and the football that's, you know,

818

:

billion dollar brands, right?

819

:

The good thing again, is

that the product's great.

820

:

Right.

821

:

And people love cookies

and people love ice cream.

822

:

The hardest thing for us really is trying

to build education around the category.

823

:

Like, Hey, now you can get warm

cookies delivered late into the night.

824

:

Like for a lot of people outside of

the U S and outside of the markets

825

:

that we're in, it's not even a.

826

:

Thought, ? So there's a bit of

work that we need to put into the

827

:

category education and then the,

Hey, we're the right brand for you.

828

:

Brian: Does it all Translate a

little different there in terms

829

:

of like what you're saying and is

on the night still on the night?

830

:

John: they, they, they speak

English in England, Brian, don't

831

:

Brian: I

832

:

Tom: they do.

833

:

But, but Brian, to your point,

it's, it's kind of like when you and

834

:

I worked on that, uh, what was it?

835

:

We called it like a,

cultural translation, right?

836

:

Like project where we went through and

took the brand that you and I were working

837

:

on and worked with every country across

the world, not just to translate it.

838

:

in language, but also to make

sure it's culturally relevant.

839

:

I think we did the same thing, even down

to little things like we worked with

840

:

the team, a really talented creative

director in, uh, the UK who happens to

841

:

work for our partners, Krispy Kreme and

They got really, um, passionate about

842

:

the brand and they took all of our brand

assets and essence and just tweak them

843

:

to be, to feel authentic to the UK,

even all the way down to Manchester.

844

:

Like there's certain ways

that people say things there.

845

:

Um, you know, in the, in the U S we have

like a giant sign that says open late and

846

:

I guess people use the phrase late, late.

847

:

So like there it's open late, late.

848

:

So like just like little things

like that where it just builds and

849

:

kind of deepens the authenticity is.

850

:

Is, um, how we try to do it.

851

:

John: Wow.

852

:

I love how attuned you all are to

both that, like you said, the art and

853

:

the science of maintaining your, your

brand, know, your brand reality has,

854

:

it's really, it's, it's fascinating

to hear all these, , big and small

855

:

examples where you're doing that.

856

:

Tom: Cool.

857

:

Thank you.

858

:

It's

859

:

Brian: So, so tell us the,

860

:

John: Well, thank you for the

opportunity to go do some secret

861

:

shopping in Manchester and Tahoe.

862

:

Welcome to the

863

:

Tom: Listen, it's a cool city.

864

:

It really is.

865

:

Brian: Tell us about your, your, your

partnership with the Flyers and the

866

:

Wells Fargo Center here in Philly.

867

:

I feel like that's a really good step

for you guys in terms of visibility,

868

:

especially in the region, but also,

operationally too, you know, working

869

:

with a company known as Aramark and,

having to, Rely on a partner to do

870

:

some of the operational things that

you guys have traditionally done.

871

:

How's that?

872

:

How's that been?

873

:

Tom: Yeah, it, um, it's been great.

874

:

I think this was one of these things

that to us and, you know, we kind of

875

:

were debating this for a long time,

but I had some, I think we had some

876

:

passion around arenas in particular

as something that could work for us.

877

:

Right.

878

:

So again, like feels right.

879

:

Like these are places where

typically it's cold, right?

880

:

Like you have, you have, ice skating

and hockey and they have to keep it

881

:

cold in their 365 days a year, even if

there's a concert or a basketball game.

882

:

and our cookies are served warm and,

you know, like we were interested in

883

:

sports, but it felt like arenas were the

right space for us, one because of the

884

:

frequency and two because of, you know,

we're not serving a warm cookie in 100

885

:

degree weather and outside in Florida.

886

:

Right.

887

:

So it was a simple thing, but

kind of an important thing.

888

:

And then, yeah, like for us,

partnering with the Wells Fargo Center

889

:

and the the flyers in particular.

890

:

was really about, does this work for us?

891

:

So we wanted to do it in our, our

home market, you know, the flyers are

892

:

owned by Comcast, so the building's

owned by Comcast and, Aramark operates

893

:

the building and we're the brand.

894

:

So it was kind of like all

three companies are right here.

895

:

Brian: By the way, for anybody at

home, mean, this like vortex of the

896

:

universe of Tom Carasona who worked for

Comcast then Aramark and now Insomnia.

897

:

I

898

:

John: it's

899

:

Brian: triangle of like the,

uh, it's the Bermuda triangle

900

:

John: You are right where you, you

are right where you belong, sir.

901

:

Tom: Yes.

902

:

So, um, I probably

dangerously knowledgeable.

903

:

Brian: Jay Wright runs

up and gets a cookie.

904

:

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

905

:

Um,

906

:

John: He's a walking

Venn diagram, this guy.

907

:

Tom: definitely, definitely found

the overlapping circles there.

908

:

Um, but yeah, again, like, you

know, as we, so all that true, but

909

:

more importantly in Philadelphia,

it's our most established market.

910

:

We've been here obviously since day

one, but also like, if you look at

911

:

the map of how many stores we have.

912

:

It's the most kind of like

penetrated marks that we have.

913

:

So as we start to think about,

our marketing in the past

914

:

is like hyper local, right?

915

:

You draw a circle around a store at

Westchester university, and that's where

916

:

you're marketing to right now, we have

stores in Westchester and Phoenix bill

917

:

and Contra Hawkins and downtown and,

you know, sorry, center city and South

918

:

Philly and soon to be Cherry Hill, right?

919

:

So you're filling out the DMA.

920

:

You need to find ways to

actually communicate and connect

921

:

to more people across the D.

922

:

M.

923

:

A.

924

:

So this is a great way to do that,

both within the arena itself, but

925

:

then also with the sponsorship

that comes with that, right?

926

:

Brian: Awesome.

927

:

so, so let's talk about Aramark.

928

:

So Aramark is a company that, that

operates for, uh, for stadiums, for

929

:

hospitals, for schools, as we used

to call it, because I used to work at

930

:

Aramark with Tom, for anyone looking

out there, uh, cradle to grave.

931

:

you know, one of the big projects that

we worked on together and, uh, was a

932

:

big part of, of, of both of our careers

is the, uh, the rebrand of Aramark.

933

:

And, you know, Aramark is

such a giant behemoth company.

934

:

And, as a marketer, there's these really

interesting projects that you work on

935

:

for like a singular brand that, that,

you might have a very specific mission.

936

:

And Aramark is so.

937

:

So if you do one thing, it

could impact everything.

938

:

So can you talk a little bit about,

remaking a brand for a company like

939

:

Aramark and what, what are the things

that popped up to you as you were, you

940

:

know, refreshing a brand like that?

941

:

Tom: Yeah, I mean, that was an incredible,

it's so funny, like to look back at

942

:

that, know, you're in it every day.

943

:

You don't realize like how much of

a massive impact you have until now.

944

:

Today I drive by our mark trucks

with the branding that we worked

945

:

Brian: all the time,

946

:

Tom: Right.

947

:

And it's like, Oh yeah,

that's kind of cool.

948

:

Like we, we did that.

949

:

Right.

950

:

And for me, I think I'd like, honestly,

I don't think I was a little bit

951

:

naive at the time in terms of like

how big of a project that actually

952

:

was and what we were going into.

953

:

And I was thinking, yeah, like Iron

Mark feels a little old and dated

954

:

and like we need like a refresh

look and like a new vibe, right?

955

:

Like let's do that.

956

:

And like, that to me sounds.

957

:

doable, right?

958

:

and for the most part it was, but the

process of going through, you know, a

959

:

company that was essentially like 12 or

13 different businesses, plus another

960

:

like 12 or 13 different countries

that operated kind of as completely

961

:

different brands and businesses

like getting them on all on board.

962

:

So again, like for me, I was

learning every day and kind of.

963

:

Unpeeling this onion that

I didn't even know right?

964

:

Like, like, oh my God,

like there's more things.

965

:

I think the most, most intimidating

thing, and I'll never forget this,

966

:

was the trucks and like sitting,

967

:

Brian: bring that up.

968

:

Tom: sitting with the CFO and

my boss at the time and being

969

:

like, How are we going to attack?

970

:

I don't even remember what the number was.

971

:

It was like tens of thousands

of trucks across the globe.

972

:

And like, we're going to do

these this quarter, and we're

973

:

going to do those that quarter.

974

:

And these trucks just got guns.

975

:

So like, that was mind blowing to

976

:

John: Yeah, because there are several

thousand dollars apiece to rewrap.

977

:

Tom, when you, think about some of the

things you did at Aramark and, you know,

978

:

you say that you, were maybe naive

enough to not realize how big a thing

979

:

it was that you were tackling., I got

to think that kind of not knowing what

980

:

you're biting off is where some of the

magic happens, ? When you're like, yeah,

981

:

you're not constrained by, , reality

because you're a little naive to it.

982

:

Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

983

:

And I think that that's the cool thing

about All of our jobs as marketers, ? You

984

:

really get to affect, especially when

you work on brands that are national

985

:

or global, is that, your, your job is

to basically leave them at a better

986

:

place than when you started, right?

987

:

And, it's a privilege

to be able to do that.

988

:

And when you're in it,

you're going work, right?

989

:

It's like I'm, I'm in, I'm

answering emails and I'm getting

990

:

project deadlines and I'm.

991

:

Getting feedback on things and not

wanting to hear that feedback, right?

992

:

Like it's all that stuff.

993

:

And then you look back and like, Oh,

like how we actually did a ton of stuff.

994

:

How did that actually happen?

995

:

Right?

996

:

Like it's, it I enjoy these

kinds of conversations.

997

:

It allows me to look back and be

like, Oh, wow, that was pretty cool.

998

:

And we, you know, we, we worked on tons

of things that still are having impact.

999

:

Like I

:

00:43:14,662 --> 00:43:17,942

John: Well, I hope you, I hope you

continue to have that opportunity to kind

:

00:43:17,942 --> 00:43:23,182

of attack stuff without full knowledge

of like how insane it might be you

:

00:43:23,182 --> 00:43:24,562

know, it always stays fresh like that.

:

00:43:24,632 --> 00:43:24,992

Tom: Yeah.

:

00:43:25,023 --> 00:43:25,153

Me

:

00:43:25,273 --> 00:43:27,343

John: we'll, we'll, we'll have you

back on the podcast and you can

:

00:43:27,343 --> 00:43:30,573

tell us about, you know, nine more

activations and how cool they were.

:

00:43:30,695 --> 00:43:31,295

Tom: I would love that.

:

00:43:32,915 --> 00:43:35,720

John: Regular guest, Tom Carasona.

:

00:43:36,175 --> 00:43:37,785

Tom: I'll apologize to your listeners now.

:

00:43:40,184 --> 00:43:43,904

Brian: So, Tom, I'd love to talk about

just, you know, real, real quickly.

:

00:43:43,941 --> 00:43:45,211

what drew you to marketing?

:

00:43:45,221 --> 00:43:46,391

How did you get into it?

:

00:43:46,411 --> 00:43:50,630

I know, you know, you start, you went

to Villanova, you, you jumped into

:

00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:54,558

tyranny, the agency in Philadelphia, and

then you came to Comcast, but what made

:

00:43:54,558 --> 00:43:55,988

you think this is the right way to go?

:

00:43:56,507 --> 00:43:57,217

Tom: question.

:

00:43:57,287 --> 00:44:01,597

I think probably a lame

answer for you, honestly.

:

00:44:01,668 --> 00:44:07,386

So, I mean, I was always, as a kid, like

kind of a, I'd like won the art awards.

:

00:44:07,386 --> 00:44:10,396

It was probably like

more creative mindset.

:

00:44:10,416 --> 00:44:13,506

And like, I enjoyed thinking

creatively and doing.

:

00:44:13,707 --> 00:44:14,787

creative type things.

:

00:44:14,787 --> 00:44:17,763

And I grew up on Long Island

kind of in the shadow of like the

:

00:44:17,803 --> 00:44:19,193

advertising capital of the world.

:

00:44:19,371 --> 00:44:22,561

So as a kid and like going into

college, I was like, that would be

:

00:44:22,561 --> 00:44:27,013

cool to like do ads one day, you

know, like that seems like a cool job.

:

00:44:27,068 --> 00:44:28,942

And, that's kind of how it started.

:

00:44:29,002 --> 00:44:32,212

You know, like I wanted to do

something that I remember like my mom

:

00:44:32,212 --> 00:44:34,832

growing up was like, you should do

something that makes you really happy.

:

00:44:34,872 --> 00:44:37,860

Like, don't worry about, How much money

you're going to make or whatever, but

:

00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,410

like find something you're going to

happy and you'll be successful at that

:

00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,000

and the money will come and whatever.

:

00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:43,360

Right.

:

00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:46,070

So, I, I tried to follow that passion.

:

00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,814

I thought I actually wanted to

be in, production, like be like a

:

00:44:49,824 --> 00:44:52,999

producer, like a TV producer or a

movie producer, you know, making

:

00:44:53,059 --> 00:44:54,709

documentary films or whatever.

:

00:44:54,709 --> 00:44:57,499

And, I did an internship and

I realized that wasn't for me.

:

00:44:57,637 --> 00:45:01,907

And the next thing I knew, you

know, I graduated college and, um, I

:

00:45:01,907 --> 00:45:04,457

won't bore you with all the details,

but I got my first job actually,

:

00:45:04,517 --> 00:45:06,507

uh, in New York at an agency.

:

00:45:06,577 --> 00:45:07,857

And, it was cool.

:

00:45:07,867 --> 00:45:12,301

, I got immediate exposure to like

massive global brands, Seeing the

:

00:45:12,301 --> 00:45:15,361

production process, seeing the media

strategy process, all that type of stuff.

:

00:45:15,361 --> 00:45:17,601

And I just like, from

that point on, I loved it.

:

00:45:17,601 --> 00:45:19,841

And then from there, I was

like, okay, how do I get more

:

00:45:19,928 --> 00:45:21,358

control and influence on that?

:

00:45:21,358 --> 00:45:23,788

And that's when I moved to the,

to the client side of things.

:

00:45:23,963 --> 00:45:27,479

Brian: It's so important for people to

realize that like, it's okay to change

:

00:45:27,479 --> 00:45:31,979

ideas, you know, it's okay to like,

I want to do this and then I do that.

:

00:45:31,979 --> 00:45:37,823

And and so I, I love the story

of you wanting to do production.

:

00:45:37,903 --> 00:45:40,983

And, you know, I was a

telecommunications major and I.

:

00:45:41,383 --> 00:45:44,403

Went into writing and communications

and marketing and it's just kind

:

00:45:44,403 --> 00:45:47,563

of fascinating of like, Hey, I'm

going to do this and then you're

:

00:45:47,563 --> 00:45:48,703

just going to follow the flow.

:

00:45:48,703 --> 00:45:49,713

You never know what's going to happen.

:

00:45:49,818 --> 00:45:50,218

Tom: Yeah.

:

00:45:50,418 --> 00:45:53,838

Like, you know, I talked to interns

or, you know, people are like, Oh, can

:

00:45:53,838 --> 00:45:55,818

I talk to you about my, my, my future?

:

00:45:55,818 --> 00:45:56,628

I'm a college student.

:

00:45:56,888 --> 00:45:58,858

And , one of the things

I always say is like,

:

00:45:59,088 --> 00:46:01,618

John: No.

:

00:46:01,628 --> 00:46:02,188

Tom: absolutely.

:

00:46:02,188 --> 00:46:02,418

No,

:

00:46:02,418 --> 00:46:03,288

I refuse

:

00:46:03,598 --> 00:46:04,818

John: very, I'm far too busy.

:

00:46:05,138 --> 00:46:06,018

Tom: very important.

:

00:46:06,038 --> 00:46:07,458

The cookie world is

:

00:46:08,138 --> 00:46:10,468

John: Saving, saving the world

one cookie at a time, kid.

:

00:46:10,478 --> 00:46:11,128

Tom: Yeah.

:

00:46:11,198 --> 00:46:11,748

I mean, this

:

00:46:11,843 --> 00:46:12,543

Brian: Taco chip at a

:

00:46:12,718 --> 00:46:12,988

Tom: here.

:

00:46:13,618 --> 00:46:14,508

John: Go, Google it.

:

00:46:14,688 --> 00:46:15,218

Sorry, Tom.

:

00:46:15,218 --> 00:46:16,758

What do you, what do you,

what's the advice you give?

:

00:46:16,813 --> 00:46:20,788

Tom: just say that, it's just

as important to , understand

:

00:46:20,788 --> 00:46:22,038

what you don't like, right?

:

00:46:22,058 --> 00:46:25,818

In some ways, more important, like that

learning experience to me of , going

:

00:46:25,818 --> 00:46:29,868

to an internship for whatever a year or

six months and being like, this is not

:

00:46:29,868 --> 00:46:32,268

what I want to do was really important.

:

00:46:32,318 --> 00:46:35,713

Because if I didn't do that, then

I don't know, I might be you.

:

00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:38,613

Whatever, editing tapes in a

basement somewhere and miserable.

:

00:46:38,643 --> 00:46:39,333

I don't know.

:

00:46:39,403 --> 00:46:42,753

It's okay to not love everything

and it's important to understand,

:

00:46:42,786 --> 00:46:46,869

that those things are, just as

important as things that you love.

:

00:46:47,379 --> 00:46:47,669

Brian: All right.

:

00:46:47,669 --> 00:46:49,339

Well, let's, let's keep moving.

:

00:46:49,629 --> 00:46:50,579

Awesome stuff.

:

00:46:50,759 --> 00:46:53,199

Uh, um, what got for us?

:

00:46:53,544 --> 00:46:54,084

John: What do I have?

:

00:46:54,254 --> 00:46:57,284

Well, first of all, I have Tom,

thank you so much for joining us.

:

00:46:57,334 --> 00:47:00,834

Cause, this has been fun to just kind

of shoot the breeze with you and hear

:

00:47:00,834 --> 00:47:04,461

your insights and kind of where you're,

where you're steering, a very cool brand.

:

00:47:04,461 --> 00:47:05,431

So thanks for joining us.

:

00:47:05,636 --> 00:47:06,316

Tom: Well, thank you.

:

00:47:06,346 --> 00:47:06,896

I love that.

:

00:47:06,896 --> 00:47:07,746

I love the opportunity.

:

00:47:07,746 --> 00:47:11,296

I love, uh, love you guys and love

being able to chat with you guys

:

00:47:11,311 --> 00:47:11,841

John: well,

:

00:47:12,756 --> 00:47:13,266

Tom: hugs.

:

00:47:13,821 --> 00:47:14,051

John: right.

:

00:47:14,051 --> 00:47:17,811

Well, you can stick around and, , add

to Brian's response to, , our

:

00:47:17,811 --> 00:47:22,441

final segment, the dear, hopelessly

unattainable guest Brian, uh, you,

:

00:47:22,521 --> 00:47:24,681

most recently asked JLo to join.

:

00:47:24,721 --> 00:47:28,992

So here is my plea for our next

Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

:

00:47:29,562 --> 00:47:33,388

Dear Steve Martin, you were

funny, charming, and uniquely

:

00:47:33,388 --> 00:47:34,598

entertaining when I was a kid.

:

00:47:34,993 --> 00:47:40,074

You've been in show as a comedian, actor,

author, screenplay writer, producer,

:

00:47:40,074 --> 00:47:42,944

and even musician for over 50 years.

:

00:47:43,104 --> 00:47:46,044

And you're still funny, charming,

and uniquely entertaining.

:

00:47:46,187 --> 00:47:49,417

Here at the Snap Decisions Podcast

Empire, we want to hear about the

:

00:47:49,417 --> 00:47:53,164

choices you've made to stay relevant

While pursuing your passions.

:

00:47:53,436 --> 00:47:57,636

How did you decide to give up sold

out arenas and a rockstar like

:

00:47:57,636 --> 00:48:01,549

following, walking away from stand

up comedy to focus on films instead?

:

00:48:01,612 --> 00:48:05,322

While you're making hit movies like

The Jerk, Three Amigos, Father of the

:

00:48:05,322 --> 00:48:08,992

Bride, and my favorite Planes, Trains,

and Automobiles, how the hell did you

:

00:48:08,992 --> 00:48:13,269

find time to become a pia a banjo player

accomplished enough to win a Grammy?

:

00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:17,269

And finally, how did you talk Selena

Gomez into joining Two Old Farts to

:

00:48:17,269 --> 00:48:18,889

star in Only Murders in the Building?

:

00:48:19,057 --> 00:48:21,434

Most of all, Steve, I just

want to hang out with you.

:

00:48:21,534 --> 00:48:22,584

I think we'd be friends.

:

00:48:22,657 --> 00:48:25,947

Come join us on Necker Island

with Sir Richard Branson, Michael

:

00:48:25,947 --> 00:48:27,517

Jordan, Taylor Swift, and J Lo.

:

00:48:27,767 --> 00:48:30,347

Scheduling will be a bitch,

but they've all said yes.

:

00:48:30,397 --> 00:48:32,477

Sincerely, your pals, John and Brian.

:

00:48:32,692 --> 00:48:33,302

Brian: Love it.

:

00:48:34,012 --> 00:48:34,292

Love

:

00:48:34,357 --> 00:48:34,507

John: on,

:

00:48:34,747 --> 00:48:35,577

Tom: That's beautiful.

:

00:48:35,857 --> 00:48:36,347

I love it.

:

00:48:36,457 --> 00:48:36,937

I love it.

:

00:48:37,627 --> 00:48:38,387

John: TOm, thank you.

:

00:48:38,407 --> 00:48:39,077

This has been great.

:

00:48:39,127 --> 00:48:41,437

And, uh, I think we'll have

to have you back someday.

:

00:48:42,237 --> 00:48:47,137

Tom: Uh, listen, I feel very, uh,

awkward and humbled to be part

:

00:48:47,137 --> 00:48:50,447

of this because your guests have

been like freaking a list people.

:

00:48:50,487 --> 00:48:50,927

And,

:

00:48:51,077 --> 00:48:52,627

John: we're just, we're just

getting warmed up, baby.

:

00:48:52,807 --> 00:48:55,607

Tom: know I'd like, I'm like looking

through my Rolodex and be like,

:

00:48:55,607 --> 00:48:57,157

who can I help these guys get?

:

00:48:57,157 --> 00:49:00,397

And I'm like, meanwhile, no,

they're, they're like on fire.

:

00:49:00,407 --> 00:49:01,537

So I'm, I love it.

:

00:49:01,537 --> 00:49:05,317

You guys are doing some really fun stuff

and, uh, thanks for thinking of me.

:

00:49:06,132 --> 00:49:06,292

Brian: it.

:

00:49:06,697 --> 00:49:08,617

John: keep building that cookie

empire and we'll have you back.

:

00:49:08,671 --> 00:49:09,441

Tom: Let's do it, man.

:

00:49:09,671 --> 00:49:10,411

Thanks guys.

:

00:49:11,131 --> 00:49:11,651

to you later.

:

00:49:11,661 --> 00:49:12,191

John: you, Brian.

:

00:49:12,744 --> 00:49:13,154

Tom: Bye.

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About the Podcast

Snap Decisions
Snap Decisions gives you a behind-the-scenes look at the key decisions that shape how products, brands and personalities present themselves to the world. Two savvy marketers and Monday morning quarterbacks, Brian Marks and John Young, offer their analysis of marketing and tech news and interview fascinating people who make big decisions. Learn about unique journeys and how pivotal moments drove success.

About your hosts

John Young

Profile picture for John Young
Growing up as the kid who actually enjoyed watching ads as much as classic TV reruns, it’s no surprise John Young ended up as a brand marketing executive with a passion for crafting how organizations show up in the world. He’s an entrepreneurial-minded chief marketing officer with extensive experience building stronger brands and growing businesses.

Working with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 30, he has delivered impactful marketing experiences that resonate with customers, tackled thorny communications and positioning challenges, and led large-scale change initiatives. John has driven results and executed award-winning programs for companies across various industries.

A two-time founder, John currently leads a marketing advisory firm, J-Fly Partners, where he helps growing businesses with brand positioning strategies, marketing plans, pitch decks to investors and customers, communications, product launch plans, PR, and performance media campaigns.

Brian Marks

Profile picture for Brian Marks
Brian’s spent more than 20 years building and activating digital marketing and communications strategies for diverse brands across financial services, food, education and sports. His leadership has led strategic growth and digital transformation through innovative marketing solutions. With a strong focus on strategy, planning, content creation, and customer experience, he’s delivered results that elevate brands and enhance engagement. His expertise spans several key areas: Strategy + Planning, Content + CX, Technology + Enablement, and Leadership + Mentoring.

Marketing jargon aside, he’s passionate about:

-> relentlessly finding the right solution that makes the right difference at the right time
-> saying Yes when others only say No and saying No when others only say Yes
-> bringing people together to accomplish something bigger than ourselves
-> enjoying every moment
-> Philadelphia